About Me and the Bitter Sweet End

So Begins my road to the bitter sweet end.

Let me tell you what I’m talking about,  My name is M. Rodriguez and I’ve been married for Six years, with TWO kids.   I got saved around the age of 20.  I was excited and still am, to experience his joy, spirit, and love.  But most of all as a new believer, I loved to read his word.  I made it a priority in my life, and still do; I still dive into the word with an open heart and open mind just the same.

When I first received Christ salvation, I made it a priority to read the whole bible and I did.  (Several Times)

Now that I’ve been saved for several years, I have been put in a leadership position to do discipleship bible studies with the teens at the church.  Which is great?  Because not only do I get to teach the word, but I get to dive even further into the meat of the word than before.  I teach expository style going chapter by chapter; verse by verse.

Thus the the BitterSweet Road Begins…….

And the more I think about the bible, the more it seems to that the bible is not perfect.  And by PERFECT- Without flaw, error, or fallacy.  Without hypocrisy or fault.  It is complete with quality accuracy.  

For those who don’t understand, this is huge to me.  My entire life is grounded in my faith of God and in my faith of the bible.  I am who I am, because of my biblical faith.  This is not a question of if the Christianity-God is moral, but is the Bible accurate, true, and more importantly perfect.  Because as a christian we should believe the bible is inspired by, therefore true and perfect.  But if the Bible has fault, error, or contradications how do we deal with that?

Do we accept them? and ignore them? or even worst justify the contradictions…...(like I think most christians do)

or

Accept the truth, that the Bible is not perfect/inerrant? And that my GOD, Christianity may be one big lie?

87 Responses to About Me and the Bitter Sweet End

  1. Nate says:

    Yes, I have been exactly where you are. It’s very difficult to deal with the questions you’re facing. We made it through the other side and are much happier for it, but it wasn’t easy. And I was lucky in that my wife ended up agreeing with me. If she hadn’t, I’m not sure how things would be right now.

    But I’ll definitely keep an eye on your blog. I hope things go well for you as you continue this journey. Good luck!

    • Both me and my wife are solid believers and both very active in our faith/church. Because of our faith is the very reason we are married. So this may be a huge barrier in our relationship.

      Just the other day I brought the topic of the creation story and who did Cain marry? And where did all the people come from? And I can tell you it wasn’t the most light conversation. It did start to become a little tense and had to stop the conversation after a while.

      (the reason I brought it up is cause I will be having a post on this topic next month)

      • Pete says:

        Just happened on this site and saw this question. First off, I’m I born again bible believing Christian. While not everything is explained in the bible you can “figure” out some things with a little faith and a little logic.

        Who did Cain marry? His sister. Even though we only hear the names of Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel and Seth we can see that Adam and Eve. In Gen 5:3-5 we don’t even see Cain and Able listed in the lineage. Just Adam and Seth and Other sons and daughters. One of those daughters married Cain.

        Problems with other ideas: God created other people or other people “evolved” and one of them married Cain. The problem comes when you understand original sin and the price paid by Jesus to redeem us. We are tainted by the sin of Adam and Eve as are all. If there were “others” not descended from Adam they would not be tied to Adam’s sin. Romans 3:23 says all sin. If the genesis account of creation is not true than neither is the promise of Christ found therein (gen 3:16).

        Some find this a hard truth. Before the fall gen 1:28 said be fruitful and multiply. Pain of childbirth may have been a curse but children were not. Incest was not mentioned until long after the fall in Leviticus. Maybe without the fall Adam and Eve would still be having kids but that’s not what happened.

        Having questions is fine but dont doubt faith or the bible. Question your understanding until you get it right.

    • Nate says:

      I hear you. It was the same for my wife and I. We married young and had both been raised in the same version of Christianity. It was the basis for everything we did and was the core of our relationship with one another.

      My questions first started because of some articles I had read on the Book of Daniel (I’m actually in the process of reposting them now). When I first brought up some of my concerns to her, it was a difficult conversation. In fact, she initially told me that even if there were real problems with the Bible, it couldn’t change anything. I ended up feeling pretty bad for bringing it up — all it did was cause her to worry (of course, I was worried too!), and we both laid in bed crying that first night because of the gravity of the subject.

      But it didn’t take too long for her to also feel that we needed to investigate the truth of the Bible for ourselves. If nothing else, it wasn’t right for us to raise 3 children in a religion that might end up being wrong.

      It ended up working out very well for us, but I know it doesn’t always go that way. Dan Barker’s marriage ended in a divorce because of his deconversion. And someone very close to me has stopped believing, but his wife has never reached a point where she can discuss it rationally with him. So he just no longer brings it up and continues to live as if he’s a believing Christian.

      It’s very difficult, and each situation is different. There’s no right answer for dealing with it, but whatever the outcome, I hope things work out well for you. Again, good luck with it.

    • Hi Pete,

      Thanks for comments Pete. Considering your comments I decided to put up -
      Who did cain marry?

      I actually finished the post about a month ago, and was planning on putting it up next week, but considering your comments, I thought I would just put it up now.

  2. Brenda says:

    I was fortunate because my husband was very supportive of me through all my doubting and eventual exit from christianity. I don’t think he likes titles but our journey through all my doubts and searching have left him in an agnostic position I think (whereas I’m an atheist). Our marriage is as good as ever and even stronger I think because we know if we can withstand that type of change then we must really want to be together! And it gave us a certain amount of confidence knowing we were willing to follow where the doubts led even if the consequences would change everything. But you’re right Nate – it doesn’t always work out that way. Such is life.

    BibleReader:

    Thought you might find this link helpful since the Bible is your focus:

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/larry_taylor/canon.html

  3. Having worked with ages children to adults in various positions in several states and three different denominations, I can honestly say that you do not stop believing. You just never truly believed. It is like you do not fall in and out of love. You were never really in love. Christianity is based on faith. Without faith you are trusting your human intellect and feelings. The Bible is the divine inspired word of God I have no doubt. There are no myths, inconsitencies or imperfections. I have studied the Scoffield KJV, Dake, NLT, ESV, NIV, HCSB, NKJV, CEV, NCV versions and the NASB, KJV translations. The questions you are asking are valid, and have clear explanations. Keep digging and searching, keep trusting and having faith.

    • to mom2mom,

      U sound like many of my Calvinist friends. These are many of the same things we have talked about in discussions i.e:

      the reason why a person is falling out of their faith, is because they were never the elect, or they were never really saved or they have faulty doctrine or they were not chosen or they were not a true convert. And I’m pretty sure, if told them about this blog, or if I told them I am an unbeliever they would probably just say the same about me.

      Now it seems to me that you posted this comment, without actually reading the blog. Because in the alleged contradictions, I do acknowledged bible translations, and how a bible translation would affect the alleged contradiction. Even further, in some my comments I have repeatedly said,. I have studied TEXTUAL CRITICISM. I have studied the HISTORY OF THE BIBLE. and seems to me when people bring up the issue of translations, it appears that they don’t actually have an answer for the contradiction, and then they make reference to translation, like I already didn’t look up the verse in a different translation.

      I don’t see how anybody can get the impression, that a scripture is misunderstood because of difference of version, because when most people come across a difficult scripture, 90% of people will look the scripture up in a different translation. (So they can get a better translation.)

      And just for entertainment purposes I have a copy of each one of those translations on my bookshelf (Except the scoffield KJV and Dake) and I also have Green literal translation, amplified, NRSV and not including the bible explorer 4 software that my wife bought me last week.

      1) Now, If you earnestly believe that there are no myths, imperfections, or inconsistencies, I do encourage you to go through the alleged contradiction on post a comment explaining my alleged misunderstanding of the scripture.

      2) Now secondly, I do propose a question. Why do you believe the Bible is God’s inspired Word? (Now remember I still do stand on my christian faith, so I have already heard the typical cliche answer, 2 timothy 3:16, John 1:1, which is my wife’s Favorite, and 1 Corinthians 1:12, cause he saved me, cause he loved me) But let’s get to Big Question, Why do you REALLY believe the Bible? Why do you believe the bible is true? IF you do desire to use a traditional cliche answer, that’s fine, but let your answer be TRUE and HONEST?

      • Ryan says:

        The belief that those who turn away were never the true elect is is circular reasoning. Why did that person turn away? well, because they never truly believed. Why did that person remain truthful? because they are one of the Elect. How do you know this? Isin’t that arrogent to claim that another person never believed? for we cannot step inside another person, or truly understand whats going on in their heart. by just stating that someone who turns away was never truly a believer is a belief that can justify every person who believes, and dismisses everyone who doesn’t. How can any conversation be had?

    • Nate says:

      Having been both a Christian and an atheist, I can tell you that your assertion is completely untrue. Just like we can believe in Santa Claus when we’re children but stop believing when we grow up, we can truly have faith in God/Jesus but then lose it.

      And yes, there are myths, inconsistencies, and imperfections in the Bible. However, if you have answers to those things, please head to my blog as well and check out the links in my “About” section that list all the posts I’ve done about them. Feel free to comment away.

      I know it’s uncomfortable to think that people could actually lose their faith, or that the Bible is not actually a perfect document… but just because it’s uncomfortable doesn’t mean it’s not true.

      • Ryan says:

        “just because it’s uncomfortable doesn’t mean it’s not true.”

        I agree with you Nate :)

      • Ryan says:

        “there are myths, inconsistencies, and imperfections in the Bible.”

        In my own study Ive yet to conclude that passages are inconsistencies, I instead have concluded that I have yet to understand it. I have found if Im willing to do further study some (but not all) of these questions I have regarding certain passages have become alot clearer.

        That being said it could be that I don’t want to admit there are inconsistencies in the Bible because Im afraid of turning away from God. To be honest there are certain passages in the OT where people are killed that I struggle to understand.

      • Nate says:

        I hear what you’re saying Ryan. Let me just ask you this:

        If God will only save those who believe in Jesus, how do you think people of other faiths will come to believe in him? I think it would start when they have questions about their own faiths. But if they decide that they just don’t fully understand those things yet, so they’ll continue in their faith — maybe even dedicate themselves more fully — how will they ever come to Jesus?

        So with that in mind, is your decision any different? How can we expect people of other faiths to do things that we ourselves won’t do? Leaving one’s faith is a horribly scary and difficult thing to do, and I certainly don’t recommend doing it rashly. But I do think it’s worthwhile to think about how consistent we’re being when we see issues in our beliefs but just sit on them, while expecting other people to find issues with their faith and jettison it.

      • I respectfully disagree. Believing in a “character” like Santa Claus that many cultures lay claim to his origin is not the same as believing in Jesus Christ, the son of God. Historically, Jesus can be proven through writings that are outside of the Bible. They are not many origins of the story of Jesus. The secular, Jewish and Biblical accounts of Jesus all agree He lived and taught and died. There were accounts outside of the Bible that listed His being seen after His death, after His resurrection. I have never met a true “atheist”. The more I have talked with them, the more they believe in something and/or would like to have hope that there “is something/someone”. Maybe you do not believe in God. The good news is, He still believes in you. Blessings.

      • Nate says:

        Hi mom2mom,

        It’s your privilege to disagree, but since you’ve never been an atheist, you really don’t know whether or not it’s possible to genuinely lose your faith.

        Couple things: I think Santa is a perfect analogy because it’s something many of us believe in as a child, but then stop believing in as we get older. But if you feel that it somehow cheapens the idea of god, then substitute whatever you like. Do you think it was possible long ago for followers of Thor to really believe in Thor… but then become converted to Christianity? Then why can’t it work the other way around? Besides, Romans 11:19-23 quite clearly shows that people can fall away from God and even be renewed again. Hebrews 10:26-30 shows that people who were once “sanctified” but turn away from the “truth” can expect to receive “a fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation.” 2 Timothy 2:17-18 shows that Hymenaeus and Philetus were able to “overthrow the faith of some.” So even the Bible teaches that you can lose your faith.

        As far as the historicity of Jesus is concerned, those historical really only show that there were people at the time that believed in Jesus. It certainly helps lend credence to the idea that he was a real person, but that’s really all it does. And virtually all scholars, even conservative ones, recognize that the passage in Josephus that talks about Jesus’ miracles is a forgery. If Josephus had actually written it, he would be a Christian — yet we know he wasn’t.

        Finally, you may not be familiar with the correct definition of “atheist.” Atheists don’t claim to know that no gods exist. The vast majority of us readily admit that it’s possible a god (or gods) is out there somewhere. But we don’t believe in any. You know how you feel about every other god that people have believed in? That makes you an atheist toward all those gods (interestingly, this is why Romans often called early Christians “atheists”). So I’m no different than you — I just add one more god to the list of the ones I don’t believe in.

        Thanks

      • Another former believer turned atheist here. I have no doubt that I once believed in god. I wouldn’t have tried so hard to hold on to my faith in god when it started slipping away if I had not. I wouldn’t have struggled so hard with “sexual impurity” in my thoughts and actions as a teen if I hadn’t really believed there was a god and that he would be disappointed in my were I to keep failing at my efforts (I didn’t even really fear punishment from him as much as I feared disappointing him). However, small things kept building up and eventually I was able to stop believing in that god.

        It is quite possible for someone to have faith and then, later, lose that faith.

  4. Sorry, I was correcting the spelling when it posted. * inconsistencies

    • Ryan says:

      mom2momflorida I just wanted to ask you a question

      If a person is abused in the church, and as a result turns away from God.

      Are they no longer part of the Elect?

      I believe in Christ, but I don’t believe it is our place to decide who is the Elect

      God is Judge, we don’t know the whole picture, how can we possibly conclude whats going on inside another human’s heart and mind?

  5. I did read the blog. I responded briefly as an interloper not wishing to arrogantly insert a long response. Let me first say that I am the furthest thing from a Calvinist. I believe that ALL can be saved. I did not say those that turned away were not the elect, just that they never truly believed. I know that God’s word is true and accurate. Yes, the Bible says so, but this I KNOW. I was raised in a very strong Christian home and have set in person listening to Tozer, Graham, Ten Boom, and many great Biblical speakers. In 1982 I died on the operating table and have a wonderful testimony of God’s faithfulness and giving me time on earth with my children. I am not eloquent in speech,or trained to respond theologically. However, there are many great Biblical scholars who have given great research and time to answering questions like yours. That is why I said continue to search. One such man, whom I have met and heard address the questions, has been a speaker at Harvard, Purdue, and many other great universities addressing many of the students difficult questions. You can hear him address several of yours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs&feature=player_embedded#!
    I know God is still in control in this world. He is still on the throne and the victory is His. I know He loves me and cares for me. He guides my every step. There are no surprises to Him. I know there are some things I can not comprehend, and so I accept them by faith. That is my faith. Simple, childlike? Maybe. I am sure I have not answered your questions. I do not feel qualified to. Only the Lord can give you discernment through His Holy Spirit as you continue to study and search for answers.

    • Ryan says:

      Hi mom2momflorida, that youtube link you posted above is really useful, thanks, I think it provides a sound explanation into some of the questions I have.

      Thanks :)

      • I think he has several up. I really admire this man’s ability to intellectually address some pretty stiff questions. He was raised Hindu, failed at suicide, was led to the Lord and has been a powerhouse of a speaker all over the world. The international ministries has a plethora of resources. http://www.rzim.org/resources.aspx I met him in Atlanta and taught his daughters in church programs. Very humble man for all of his world travels and notoriety. Very real, truly a man of God.

    • Ryan says:

      mom2momflorida you wrote: “I did not say those that turned away were not the elect, just that they never truly believed.”

      Does that mean that belief requires people to not question? Are you saying this because all people who accept Christ will be Given His Spirit, who will remind us of the truth?

      I hope you don’t mind me asking, Have you ever heard from God directly?

      • Of course we can question. Just as my children and grandchildren question me. That does not mean I do not exist as mom and grandmother. That is a miniscule example of course. But, God is our Heavenly Father. We are to learn from Him. But, questioning will not lead to non-belief, only enlightenment and discernment. The Holy Spirit that comes within us as Christians guides us when we do not hamper Him. God speaks to me directly daily. Not in an audible voice or “burning bush”. But, I KNOW when He is leading me. I did die on the operating table in 1982. I did not see the face of God but I was in His presence. The day my father died, the last thing he said to me was, “you cannot live once you have seen the face of God”. I was in His presence, I saw myself on the operating table. I cannot describe the beauty or the peace. Words on earth cannot. I had been a Christian for 25 years at that point. I had never doubted God’s existence, it only reaffirmed my beliefs. I have been so grateful for the days God allows me to be here and be used by Him in my children, and now grandchildren’s lives. There are skeptics of the “death experiences” I know. I know some write books about it; I would not attempt to describe His presence. There are so many books out there, Dr. Maurice S. Rawlings was an atheist surgeon until one man he revived came back from hell, not Heaven. “Skeptics Answered” by Dr. James Kennedy is also good about answering questions. I cannot explain faith. It is like you can tell someone a chair is going to hold them but, until they sit in it and find it true, they have not claimed that truth.

      • Nate says:

        I’ve read many of the books that “answer” skeptics. Most of them provide skewed information or only answer straw men arguments. I’d recommend comparing them to the books written by actual skeptics to see which position seems most likely.

        Personally, I was also raised in a very strong Christian home. I fervently believed it and spent many years as a Bible class teacher. I did a lot of personal work, and I preached quite a number of sermons, though that was something I never did on a full time basis. I, like you, believed the Bible was completely inerrant. That is, until I ran across evidence that called that into question. My questions were sincere, and I fully expected to find real answers that would bolster my faith. Just like you, I believed that answers and deeper study could only make me a stronger Christian. Yet after finding problem after problem, here I am — an atheist.

        And let me just add that I understand that you KNOW Christianity is true. But Muslims KNOW Islam is true and Mormons KNOW Mormonism is true. Why are they wrong and you aren’t? You don’t have to answer, but I think it’s something valuable to think about.

    • Interesting video I might reblog it

    • arkenaten says:

      Amazing, I sat by my brother’s bedside after he was left in a coma following a major car accident. He was 18, looked a bit like a fighter pilot connected to that machne and had more tubes entering and exiting his body than is decent. He had not left a will, as who would at such a young age? But being only a couple of years older than him there was the vexing question of his record collection, especially his mint condition copy of the Sex Pistols, Never mInd The Bollocks vinyl album.
      Thankfully, just before the doctor switched off the life support maching I heard a voice in my head whilst holding tightly to my brother’s left hand. And this voice said.
      “Oy, God here, Kev. says the album is yours and if you sell it he’ll come back and haunt you. Got it?”
      I mutely acknowleged -’Thanks, God’ and to this day whenever I play that album I think of my brother …and god too.
      However, nobody believed I had heard the voice of God that Tuesday afternoon. I wonder why? But thank god I got the record, right? He hasn’t said anything since BTW but I guess he’s a Sex PIstols fan, like me, right?
      Good one God.

  6. Ryan says:

    I was talking to a friend about differences in faiths, and he pointed to the cross. The difference between Christianity and other faiths is that God became flesh and sacrificed Himself for all humanity.

    Isaiah 53:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Buddha’s body was cremated

    Muhammad, considered the final messenger, is buried in the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi in Saudi Arabia.

    People can visit where Jesus is said to have been entombed for three days, between his Crucifixion and Resurrection.

    A profound difference between the many faiths that have existed and Christianity is that of Christ’s resurrection.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions#Christianity

    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

    After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

    And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:4-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    My own faith is vain if Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead

    But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

    And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

    For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

    And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

    If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    1 Corinthians 15:13-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    • Nate says:

      That’s a decent point, Ryan, but it still doesn’t mean it’s true. I think Star Wars is an awesome story: a fallen man who tears down everything he ever loved is finally redeemed by his own son — the sinister emperor who orchestrated everything is finally brought down by his own machinations. It’s fantastic! But that doesn’t make it true.

      There are some really cool things about the Christian story, and it certainly has some appeal. But that just doesn’t mean it’s true. Look, if the Bible really was inerrant, or if miracles still happened today, or if God spoke directly to us, then sure — we could say that Christianity is not just a neat story, but actually true! But we don’t have any of that. God doesn’t speak to us. Miracles don’t happen. The Bible is not inerrant. So why should we believe Christianity is true?

      • Sorry to but in but can I just ask if people should just for a moment consider the fact that most of the statements are just that they are not rebuttals and are therefore not very helpful in clearing up difficult questions.
        Right thing to do is try and understand the question before attempting to give the answer.
        Faith by definition is based on some knowledge even though it may be incomplete.
        Logic by definition is using what we know and build on it if possible to identify and explain unknown.
        Atheism is just as FAITH based as any religion because one could not make a claim unless he fully u understand the subject. And ever so frequently atheists do just that. Dawkins does it,(Even though he is supposed to use scientific methods) Hitchens does it (even though he was supposed to have been a journalist Daniel Dennett’s does it even though he is considered to be philosopher. All come from presuppositions not conclusions based on analysis and examination. When we approach our search from the point that is superimposed upon us we are not really free but guided not freely but often with twisted arms.
        We should not be blinded by our desire to be intellectually sound and forget the very first principle of intelligence that it involves so much more than just knowledge. Emotional and perceptive inelegance, where we simply know that certain things are right and wrong should not be dismissed because they may not be as sophisticated as some intellectual atheist.
        Just because someone says something does not make these things true. There were number of misunderstandings and lies spreading over the net. Little knowledge can be dangerous as they say!!!
        I am surprised again and again, when people make claims that are unsupported and especially when one view is given preference when two explanation could happily co-exist. Question one must ask is why, what is making you think like it. Are you driven by shame, by desire to be recognised, loved, respected or find the truth? I have studied theology and have studied liberal theology, atheism and much more. Doubts are great but one should not assume that this will lead to loss of faith in fact in my instance I have become more conservative because I believe I have got greater understanding.
        Adversity of doubt can help in your honest search and enquiry could lead to solidification of your faith. But care should be placed upon honesty and what is driving this enquiry.
        Just because we got hurt by Christians does not mean we must reject Christ. It is a fact that there are many Christians that believe all kinds of weird and wonderful things but that should not drive our understanding of what it should be.
        I get chuckled often by claims that Christ never existed or that there are many thousands of mistakes in the bible. Truth is that this is minority view even amongst top scholars and this is the key to balanced approach that you have opposing views and divergence can be very helpful as long as we attempt to understand the background of the proponents of their world view. Don’t get me wrong there are difficult passages in the Bible but none of them that impact meaningfully on the Christian doctrine or disprove the theological teachings of the orthodox (correct) teachings of the church.
        One of the reasons we have orthodoxy is that we have had falsehood and that needed correcting. Losing one’s faith is fine as long as we are truly prepared to listen to those who are still happy to keep their faith with equal amount of honesty and respect for their views.
        Kind regards

      • Nate says:

        Hi defendtheword,

        I agree that we should all be willing to listen to one another. However, I’m curious why you think most of these positions rely more on presupposition than on study and evidence? Also, I would have to disagree that atheism takes faith — it’s really an absence of faith. Does it take faith for you to disbelieve in Allah, Thor, or Zeus?

        Anyway, I appreciated reading your comment. Take care.

      • Of course it takes faith! I have faith that Allah doesn’ exist. We have faith in pretty much whatever we believe in. Atheists have faith that there is no God. Agnostics tend to have faith that it’s OK not to know etc… Personally, I find a life in Christ has the smallest ‘leap’ of faith. But that’s me!

  7. Ryan says:

    Also just to mention sorry, “My own faith is vain if Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead” was my own ommentry. It wasn’t a direct reference to the Bible.

  8. Ryan says:

    Commentary *

  9. Nate – The Mormons and Muslims I know WORK for their HOPE. I KNOW I have the free GIFT of salvation – no work, and I don’t have to hope, I KNOW. The Christian’s HOPE is a verb. I think it is sad you never did KNOW and so you continue to search. Works do not equally knowledge. Many a man has stood and taught and preached and not KNOWN. Judas knew Jesus, but he did not KNOW Jesus. Just as satan knew Jesus but he does not KNOW Jesus. Until you KNOW Him, you will be lost and continually looking.

  10. Nate says:

    Hi mom2mom,

    You aren’t actually showing any distinction between yourself and Mormons and Muslims. You believe that your religion is better because salvation comes as a free gift, not through work. But you can’t judge Mormons and Muslims off what the Bible teaches. They have their own sources of authority. And just because your idea of what true salvation should look like is different from theirs, it doesn’t mean it’s better, and it certainly doesn’t mean it’s truer. They could just as easily make the argument that their beliefs are better because God actually expects something from them in order to be saved.

    It’s easy to say that you know something but other people don’t. But in reality, that’s just not true. You can’t know how other people feel. They may (and probably do) feel just as sincere as you. People in the Heaven’s Gate cult were so sure of their beliefs that they killed themselves. Hard to get more sincere than that… yet they were wrong. This only shows us that people can “KNOW” things and still be wrong. The only way to help make sure our deepest held beliefs are actually right is to examine them critically and objectively.

    Finally, I would hope that all of us are continually looking. Even Jesus said that’s the only way to find truth (Matt 7:7-8).

  11. I will leave one last comment, as it is not my place nor intention to prove you wrong. I died on an operating table in 1982. Having been a Christian most of my life, I was in His presence, in Heaven prior to being resuscitated. I saw myself on the operating table, the doctors and nurses. I saw the glory of Heaven, and knew the peace that passes understanding and lack the words to express all … there are no words here on earth that truly express what I would want to say about Heaven. Of all the people I have met and/or read about dying and coming back, they either went toe Heaven or hell. Heaven is real, God is real. Faith in Jesus as His son takes you to Heaven. Yes, some ‘backslide’ or give in to carnality, but come back to Him. We cannot be good in and of ourselves. But to ‘believe’ and then totally turn your back on Him, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit … that is the unpardonable sin the Bible speaks of that leads to your choice of hell. Our choice, our free will to choose or not to … He is not a puppet master. Just as He allowed satan to leave Heaven out of his own (arrogant) free will; you are also allowed to choose to not believe. It can be a fairy tale to you, idiotic, unfathomable… a hoax, a weakness of the mind of followers. It all boils down to … what if you are wrong? You will know seconds after you die (or not). If I am right, I have gained all. If not, I have lived a life that strove to help others (I do not know of any muslim or mormom hospitals, charities, although there may be some), a life of honoring my parents and trying to teach my children and grandchildren to do right. The greatest religious aid groups are Christian organizations. They give back as Christ gave. For a ‘never existed or wasn’t who He said He was’, 2000+ years have felt His footprints … they won’t go away. When I am gone, I hope I have left only footprints to follow for my children and descendants.

    • Nate says:

      Hey mom2mom,

      Obviously, this near death experience was very meaningful to you — I don’t want to disabuse you of that. At the same time, these types of experiences are recounted by people of every faith, and no faith at all. In all likelihood, they are akin to hallucinations, but who really knows for sure?

      As for Pascal’s Wager, it’s a false choice. The choice isn’t between following Christ or not — it’s a choice among every religion that has ever existed. What if Zeus is real? Then we’ll both be found wanting. What if Krishna is real? Again, both of us will be wrong. In the end, we must each come to our own conclusion about what’s true. You believe Christianity is true. I don’t. Hopefully, we both have good reasons for our beliefs.

      I’m not out to prove you wrong either. I’m sure Christianity has motivated you to do many good, moral things. My only hope for you is that you’ll put aside the notion that people can’t change their minds about Christianity. It’s just not true — the Bible doesn’t even teach that idea. While I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, it comes off as extremely arrogant to tell someone what they did or did not believe. You would rightly be offended if someone told you that you’re not a true Christian. How would they know? In the same way, you can’t tell someone who’s left Christianity that they were never a true Christian to begin with.

      Thanks for the conversation,

      Nate

      • Interesting to see you make such claim, you don’t know you guess yet you make strong statement I would guess you prefer to be amongst intelligent people and are reluctant to accept things that are hard to believe.

        Yet all our experiences are and should be counted as valid and should be examined without partiality to our world views.
        If you were to use logic which you seem to prefer, one should remember that Christianity predates Mormonism and Islam both of those by at least 600 years.

        You don’t know the truth or what is right or wrong to believe but you are free to make judgement on others. Claim that we should say we don’t know is just as judgemental as claim that one particular truth is more accurate that is plain logic. So no slip to logic should be afforded to anyone claiming tolerance or broadmindedness. It’s all smoke and mirrors and lack of commitments to a view is more often than not linked to emotional insecurity than knowledge and understanding.

        Ideology and philosophy of religion is just as important and can be quickly recognised and should be taken into account when analysing what is and is not true. For example if Hinduism claims many gods are correct and this includes Jesus and Jesus and Christianity excludes all others except for him making it clear that he is the only way (By the way this is true for Mormons too) then sticking by traditional Christianity is OK and advisable and this is applicable for this life and any other afterlife. Safer bet as one may say.

        Lastly just wanting to win the argument is the worst way of debating and should be avoided by All means possible. We must be careful not to appear self-righteous and claim deeper understanding. People who often quote the story of 4 blind men and elephant each claiming that after touching different part of the elephant that they got different truth, one claiming that he got tree because he touched his leg, one touching tail claiming that he got the brush, one ear claiming to have touched big leaf one his stomach claiming to have touched rock. Then comes the conclusion which is very, very false that “because we don’t know we must not make statements or commit to any knowledge” ANYONE making such claim is arrogant utmost because he is making a claim that he possesses best of all understandings and can therefore give final judgement and as such making biggest of all fallacious arguments.

        As I often say to my children if you don’t know something then be quite and listen you may even learn something rather than claiming that because I don’t know you must not be able to know it either. That is just not fair nor logical and list of all honest.

        Kind regards

        Defend the Word

      • Nate says:

        Hi defendtheword.

        I think you may have been responding to my last comment, but I had some trouble following your points. So I’m just going to leave it at that. If you were asking me a question, please feel free to rephrase it and I’ll try to respond. If I misunderstood and you weren’t talking to me, then I apologize for jumping to any conclusions.

        Thanks

      • If one is to say that something is not there then they must either know it or guess it. If one is to provide evidence that God is not there then they would become world famous. If one does not know then their position must be driven by their faith.
        It is simply not true that Atheism and any other religion are different, fact is that in Buddhism we see absence of God (Some parts of it at least) yet it is still called religion / faith.
        We see that there are many disciples of atheism and many teachers, there is a manifesto, place where they store their teachings (So they have religious text) and most of all because they don’t have evidence against God they must base their views on faith.
        And absolutely my faith is fully committed in rejecting any other Gods.
        Kind regards
        Defend the Word

      • Hi Sorry for not clarifying my points for you, on my blog I usually separate each section and try to answer each point I may considered inconsistent. I do consider it inappropriate to dominate discussion is someone else’s web page. I will refrain from going over this too many times as I appreciate that this may annoy the host.

        Nate
        Obviously, this near death experience was very meaningful to you — I don’t want to disabuse you of that. At the same time, these types of experiences are recounted by people of every faith, and no faith at all. In all likelihood, they are akin to hallucinations, but who really knows for sure?

        Defend the Word
        Interesting to see you make such claim, you don’t know (Because you could not possibly know this), you guess yet you make strong statement I would guess you prefer to be amongst intelligent people and are reluctant to accept things that are hard to believe.
        Yet all our experiences are important and should be counted as valid and should be examined without partiality to our world views.

        Nate
        As for Pascal’s Wager, it’s a false choice. The choice isn’t between following Christ or not — it’s a choice among every religion that has ever existed. What if Zeus is real? Then we’ll both be found wanting. What if Krishna is real? Again, both of us will be wrong. In the end, we must each come to our own conclusion about what’s true. You believe Christianity is true. I don’t. Hopefully, we both have good reasons for our beliefs.

        Defend the Word
        If you were to use logic which you seem to prefer, one should remember that Christianity predates Mormonism and Islam both of those by at least 600 years.
        You don’t know the truth or what is right or wrong (Which religion is right) to believe but you are free to make judgement on others. Claim that we should say we don’t know is just as judgemental as claim that one particular truth is more accurate that is plain logic. So no slip to logic should be afforded to anyone claiming tolerance or broadmindedness. It’s all smoke and mirrors and lack of commitments to a view is more often than not linked to emotional insecurity than knowledge and understanding.

        Ideology and philosophy of religion is just as important and can be quickly recognised and should be taken into account when analysing what is and is not true. For example if Hinduism claims many gods are correct and this includes Jesus and Jesus and Christianity excludes all others God’s except for him as he was making it clear that he is the only way (By the way this is true for Mormons too) then sticking by traditional Christianity is OK and advisable and this is applicable for this life and any other afterlife. Safer bet as one may say.

        Nate
        I’m not out to prove you wrong either. I’m sure Christianity has motivated you to do many good, moral things. My only hope for you is that you’ll put aside the notion that people can’t change their minds about Christianity. It’s just not true — the Bible doesn’t even teach that idea. While I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, it comes off as extremely arrogant to tell someone what they did or did not believe. You would rightly be offended if someone told you that you’re not a true Christian. How would they know? In the same way, you can’t tell someone who’s left Christianity that they were never a true Christian to begin with.

        Defend the Word
        Lastly just wanting to win the argument is the worst way of debating and should be avoided by All means possible. We must be careful not to appear self-righteous and claim deeper understanding. People who often quote the story of 4 blind men and elephant each claiming that after touching different part of the elephant that they got different truth, one claiming that he got tree because he touched his leg, one touching tail claiming that he got the brush, one ear claiming to have touched big leaf one his stomach claiming to have touched rock.

        Then comes the conclusion which is very, very false that “because we don’t know we must not make statements or commit to any knowledge” ANYONE making such claim is arrogant utmost because he is making a claim that he possesses best of all understandings and can therefore give final judgement and as such making biggest of all fallacious arguments.

        As I often say to my children if you don’t know something then be quite and listen you may even learn something rather than claiming that because I don’t know you must not be able to know it either. That is just not fair nor logical and list of all honest.

        Kind regards

        Defend the Word

      • Nate says:

        Hi defendtheword,

        I agree that we don’t want to take over biblereader’s blog, so I’ll try to stay brief.

        When I commented about mom2mom’s personal experience, I was just making a statement — one that’s actually similar to yours: she has to rely on her personal experience, but none of us should be expected to. I can’t take her personal experience as a reason why I should believe. That’s all. It was meaningful to her, but it doesn’t constitute proof.

        It’s true that Christianity is older than Islam or Mormonism, but there are many other religions older than Christianity. That’s why Romans often referred to early Christians as atheists. The age of the religion doesn’t carry a whole lot of weight, in my opinion. If it did, perhaps we should be worshiping Isis and Osiris?

        My last paragraph to mom2mom was only an effort to say that while she can (and should) have her own beliefs, it’s arrogant to tell people who have left Christianity that they were never Christians to begin with. There’s no way she could know that. Just as it would be arrogant of me to tell her about her own motivations or feelings. It’s being judgmental. That’s all I was trying to say. I’m afraid I still don’t quite understand what you were trying to say about that part of my comment. I understand the words you were using, but I don’t see how they apply to the conversation mom2mom and I were having.

        Anyway, thanks for trying to clarify. And thanks to biblereader for putting up with us. :)

    • Just a quick comment to say that I admire your arguement greatly.

      Thanks very much for being the light.

      Kind regards
      Defend the Word

    • Just a quick comment to say that I admire your arguement greatly.

      Thanks very much for being the light.

      Kind regards
      Defend the Word
      Reply

      • no, I don’t mind you defendtheword dominating discussion, I and I assume everybody else on this blog welcomes and encourages open discussion. I see no point in a blog if we didn’t have open discussion.

        However I see rationality on the age of Christianity on it being older than islam and mormonism, but in all honesty that by itself is not enough to validate Christianity over all other religions. I mean than one can say Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism, have a reasonable case to be considered the most ligitmate religon cause they are two of the oldest religions in the world. But i’m sure you just made that point as one point over many other reasons why Christianity is the true religion over the one and only GOD.

      • You are right, with other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism we find very hard to pin down their religious teaching; what we need to remember is that even though these religions holds some outlines of the teaching they are muddied with sayings that are hard to understand and are very much open to individual interpretation.

        Nothing new then atheists would say, but difference is that with Islam, Judaism and Christianity you could actually challenge historicity and logic. This is almost impossible with other religions where you have millions of Gods (Hinduism) or No God (Buddhism) and teaching that is imprecise or filled with ambiguity.

        It is also true that we see clear evolution that impacts on the change of the direction of their teachings with acceptance of Jesus as one of the gods even though Jesus claimed that there is only one God and they continue with the acceptance of new Gods for example David Beckham (who once was Manchester United player) we see all kinds of contradictions which is very much unlike Christianity and Judaism where change is attribute to gradual revelation and natural progression.

        In Judaism and subsequently with Christianity any progression is accompanied by clear links to the past. And one of the clearest reasons why Christianity and Judaism stand above the others is that we see prophesies in the Old Testament being fulfilled in Jesus in the New Testament. Again teachings of the Bible can be challenged because it engages with logic and historicity unlike other religions this is why so many atheists are first and foremost attacking it.

        Kind regards

        Defend the Word

  12. Brenda says:

    For anyone wanting to do some reading from a former Christian missionary on the topic of:

    Miracles (since mom2mom is claiming a miracle):
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Miracles2

    Pascal’s Wager (since mom2mom claims that we run the risk of loss/punishment but that she is safe and does not run the same risk – which is known as Pascal’s Wager):
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Pascal

  13. Persto says:

    Thank you for the follow!

  14. Thank you for “liking” our post about compromise. We really appreciate you taking the time to visit.

  15. Freedom says:

    First time reading your blog – very cool so far. I have gone through and asked the same questions and my faith is much stronger than it was prior to asking questions. As for me, I am NOT an Evangelical Christian (I am a follower of Jesus), so I don’t hold to the various theology, doctrine and systems presented by the various Evangelical denominations, churches and movements.

    I do not believe in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. A quick study of history will show that the Bible in its current and what will be the final form (and that includes all of the canons – Protestant, Catholic and the various other Churches’ versions) came from multiple documents that don’t always agree with each other. When you pull together something from multiple sources, it’s is not what was originally written – it contains people adding their own take on what they read, editing and adding to the document. They are not word for word copies of the 1st document.

    The Old Testament is not historically accurate. It was pulled together from the oral stories and tradition of different tribes that had a common belief in a single God (Monotheism). Much like when a book is made into a movie, the narrative changes but tries to capture the big picture of the stories. They are also compressing things that happened over years into a much shorter narrative. Stories were combined into one story. And, in the case of Genesis, two versions of creation were included. The overall message of the both versions is the same – God created the Universe and everything in it. Other historically issues don’t match up with what happened in the period of time the Bible states they happened. And that would be expected when you are putting together multiple oral traditions into a narrative. They original editors (for lack of a better term) didn’t have historical data on the exact year and date something took place and they did their best to turn it into one narrative.

    The Gospels bring up an different issue – they were pulled together from oral and written stories and sayings of Jesus. Matthew, Mark and Luke where pulled together from the same sources and the authors used the names of Jesus’ disciples to sound authoritative. John was from a different writer. The synoptic Gospels and John don’t have the same narrative and don’t always agree with each other. For example, did Jesus’ ministry last 1 year or 3 years? Depends on which Gospel you read.

    Once you get to the Epistles, the writers start adding in their own viewpoints on what Christianity should be. And they don’t always agree with each other. Even Paul’s views in his writing paint a different picture than the Paul in Acts.

    I came to the conclusion that The Bible is man’s understanding of God and not God’s revelation to man. Once I realized that, myself and my Faith was free of any of the theology, doctrine and created systematic approaches to The Bible.

    Good luck on your search for answers!

    • There is another guy unklee driving that same point on that the bible should not be considered inerrant. I’ve always taken it as that the autobiographical text is the perfect text.

      But unklee has mentioned that the we/I have a faulty understanding of what inspired means. That inspired means The words that God spoke – not the written words of the bible. That is something I’m going to read up more about.

      For me that is just something hard for me to get past cause inerrancy is just something I’ve always been taught.

      • Nate says:

        As you know, I’m in agreement with you. It’s always been hard for me to get my mind around too. If the Bible can’t be trusted in everything it says, why trust it on anything it says about miraculous events, which are highly improbable to begin with?

      • ignorantianescia says:

        I’d consider it like this: if a book on economic history gets some facts on the history of religion wrong, is that a reason to suppose it is wrong on the subject it is about?

  16. Donald Miller says:

    I don’t have time to go through the responses, but you’ll impress me if you can show me where the bible claims itself to be infallible.

    • Lorena says:

      Maybe nowhere. But does that change that it is preached so in churches Sunday after Sunday? Does it change that believing so we read it, studied it, memorized it, believed it, and screwed up our lives because of it?

  17. Nate says:

    Hi Donald,

    Awesome profile pic, btw. One of my favorite albums!

    The Bible does say this in 2 Tim 3:26-27:
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    If it’s all inspired by God, shouldn’t it be inerrant?

    • hey nate

      I was wondering if you would like to contribution piece on this very topic, on 2 tim. 3:26-27 and being inspired and inerrant.

      I was thinking to get you and unklee to write a contribution piece on this, cause I would love to here your perspective on it. If you are interested let me know, and i’ll give you some basic parameters for the article.

      • Nate says:

        Sure, I’d be happy to! Feel free to shoot me an email about it.

        Oh, and I just realized that I posted the wrong scripture — it should have been verses 16-17.

        Thanks!

    • Freedom says:

      There is a problem with taking that verse or any one verse and trying to apply it to the whole Bible, they verses are always taken out of context. In this case, the only scripture that existed at the time Timothy was written as the Hebrew scriptures. So, even in that context Timothy is NOT referring to the New Testament as it did not exist when he wrote those words. He also doesn’t say that the Hebrew Scriptures are to be taken literally. Inspired to inerrant is a BIG leap.

      • Nate says:

        Good point, Freedom. In many ways, I agree with you, but that’s only because I don’t believe any of it was inspired. But when I was a Christian, I would also have pointed you to 2 Peter 1:20-21, which says:

        knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

        There’s also 2 Peter 3:15-16, which says:

        And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

        So one could make the argument that Peter is at least including Paul’s letters as scripture. There are some other points too, but I’ll hold off since biblereader wants to do an entire post on this. At the very least, I don’t see it as a big jump to make the inerrancy assumption. After all, most Christians think the New Testament is just a continuation of God’s revelation, so why wouldn’t these verses about the authenticity of the OT also apply to the NT?

        Thanks

  18. Freedom says:

    I’ll hold off too since you mentioned their will be another post about about it, but I will add that so much of the Epistles are full of what the writer thinks people should do and believe.

  19. timberwraith says:

    Because as a christian we should believe the bible is inspired by, therefore true and perfect. But if the Bible has fault, error, or contradications how do we deal with that?

    I haven’t read any of the sixty some comments here in this thread, so I apologize if I cover old ground.

    Does a written document from thousands of years ago need to be perfect? Literacy was rare and so much of what was in the bible was carried by oral tradition for centuries before it was written down. From what I know of history, people didn’t necessarily have the literal interpretation of written texts that modern human beings currently do. When you pass stories by word of mouth for so long, how could you take the stories as being literally true, word for word? The spirit of the story might hold truth, but not necessarily the fine details.

    Just because a religious text isn’t literally true doesn’t mean that one’s sense of spiritual connection with the world and the universe is false. Besides, there are forty some other religions with thousands of sects and denominations. Who has the most accurate sense of spiritual connection? Does anyone? Who peers most clearly into that what humans call “divinity”? Does anyone? There are billions of people with billions of individual understandings of what lies beyond the mundane. Why not pass beyond the borders of a single text and supplement the words and experience of that text with interpretations of the divine from a multitude of approaches and sources?

    So many religions state that they have the sole approach to knowing what is truth. Is this truth, or is it a reflection of humankind’s tendency toward us vs. them divisiveness? My group is better than yours. We hold the key to understanding the world. Nearly everyone states a variation of this perception. Perhaps truth lies in the unfathomable margins of ideological conflict and discourse?

    • It seems common knowledge to assume divine inspiration of the bible is also to imply divine authority. For a Christian, belief in Holy Scripture is the Word of God, and carries the full authority of the God of the bible. And the doctrine of divine authority and divine inspiration calls for the infallible teaching of God and therefore also requires full agreement. And every command of the Bible is the directive of God himself and therefore unquestionably and respectfully promotes the idealism of the infallibility and inerrancy, not just of the bible, but also of God.

      http://bittersweetend.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/why-does-biblical-inerrancy-matter-to-me/

      I think when we deny inerrancy or infallibility we are leading down a slippery slope into the possiblity of heretical teaching, proof text, and denying the full authority and divinity of God & the bible

      • timberwraith says:

        Oh yes, what I’m proposing would indeed be declared heretical by a good portion of Christians… but certainly not all Christians. I’ve met a number of Christians who take views similar to the ones I’ve delineated above.

        Is this a popular view of the bible? No, it isn’t. It crosses human beings’ usual tribalistic boundaries of “us vs. them” and brings one to a place of consideration where one’s group of origin (Christians) doesn’t necessarily own the sole valid perspective upon the world. One finds oneself in a place of uncertainty where alternative ways of seeing the world must be considered. Uncertainty tends to generate great discomfort… and you might soon find yourself alienated from those who believed what you once did.

        Nevertheless, the common belief “the bible is the inerrant word of God” runs aground upon the reality of how the text came into existence and how the stories were transferred through the centuries from per-literate cultures to literate cultures. I’m not proposing radical ideas as far as folks who have done textual analysis of the bible are concerned.

        Why base one’s spirituality upon a notion that defies historical reality? It builds one’s sense of spirituality upon an unstable house of cards. There’s a great diversity of spiritual practices and beliefs in the world. Why limit yourself to one small pool of information? Are your fears real or are they the voice of social conformity holding you in place, trying to control you? Christian or not, we all have to contend with the drawbacks of conformist thinking. All of us.

  20. Justin Riddell says:

    The other religions can very easily be debunked. For thousands of years people believed the earth was flat. If one went too far, he would fall over the edge. This was taught in both Hindu and Buddhist scripture.
    Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
    Quran —> Below, One verse says he created Earth first, the other says Heaven…
    Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….
    Quran 79: 27 – 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth
    Quran —> Below, 1,000 years of reckoning or 50,000???
    Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
    Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning
    Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years
    —>Below, Did it take Six Days or not?
    Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
    Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
    Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
    Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
    Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
    Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
    Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …
    Quran —> Below, Man created from clot of congealed blood?
    Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood
    Three thousand years ago the Hindu scriptures recorded the earth was resting on the backs of several huge elephants. The elephants were resting on the back of a very large turtle that was swimming in a sea.
    Greek mythology claims that the god Atlas was holding the earth on his shoulders.
    Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
    Quran—> Below says they found the setting place of the sun, it rests in a muddy spring.
    Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…
    Until modern times people thought the ocean floor was sandy like the desert and saucer shaped—deepest in the middle. This was even true of the pre-1900 geologists. But in the 1900s oceanographers found the sea had many deep valleys or canyons.
    Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
    The Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea thousands of years before scientists discovered them. Indeed our Bible is the inspired Word of God.
    In the 1800s, Matthew Maury, an officer in the United States Navy discovered that the oceans have many paths or currents, which were like rivers flowing through the sea. Maury wrote the first book on oceanography and became known as “the pathfinder of the seas”— “The father of modern navigation.” He got this from reading the Bible.
    Psa 8:8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
    Now the Bible has NEVER been debunked, in fact archeological, scientific, and various other discoveries have only confirmed that which is spoken in the Bible.
    Now onto Mormonism —> The Book of Mormon claims the following tools existed in ancient MesoAmerica: chariots, steel swords, bellows for blacksmithing, and silk. None of these were in the Americas until the Columbian exchange.
    The Book of Mormon describes a vast civilization of millions who inhabited cities for hundreds of years, yet no ruins from even a single Book of Mormon city has ever been identified. No Book of Mormon place-names were in use when Europeans arrived in the New World.
    Joseph Smith was given real egyptian from an ancient Egyptian burial to translate (this was pre-Rosetta stone, and Egyptian could not be read). Modern day scholars agree that his translation is entirely manufactured and incorrect.
    To top things off, the 100% accurate prophetic Bible stated this in a scripture
    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Mormons added two additional Books to go along with the Bible. That’s adding, and if we throw out all that we learned about the book of Mormon, there’s still the fact that the Book of Mormon is adding to the 100% accurate prophetic Bible never proven wrong. Now we all know the punishment for such a crime. Based on the scriptures we know what happened to Joseph Smith.

  21. Justin Riddell says:

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Psa 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
    Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
    1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
    .
    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    —>Every word that proceedeth out of the moth of God, Not a few, or some, or most, but by EVERY WORD shall we live by.

    Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

    How is this WORD delivered?

    2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    —>holy men of God spake as they were moved by the HOLY GHOST.

    2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    —>God spake by the prophets, His word was in their tongue

    1Ki 22:24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee

    2Ch 20:14 Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, a Levite of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of the LORD in the midst of the congregation;

    Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    God spoke through the Prophets whom wrote the Books of the Bible, all scriptures were inspired by God. As such, God is infallible, inerrant, all-knowing, all-present, all-seeing. He does not make mistakes nor does he lie. It is by these truths that we can see the WORD of God is always with us. Those in which the Holy Ghost dwells inside are made known of Him, because it testifies the truth about Him. When God moves through TRUE Christian Scholars to translate HIS WORD into our language, it is done. As he has done before from Hebrew, to Greek, and other various languages. How hard is it to believe that God works in us and through us, so that he might make himself known to all who would hear his words. Because his WORDS are LIFE, and we cannot live on bread alone, but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.

  22. no1NParticular says:

    Hi there. I wanted to say that this is the exact same road I traveled in my search for God (well it sounds the same anyways). I ended up in an exhaustive search of many religions. Not having any faith in any of the foreign religions, I realized I was an “unbeliever” of some sort, even if not an unbeliever in Christ. I basically became nuts over finding out the truth about God, the Bible, and was insanely driven. My entire life was put on hold during this exhaustive search, which took man avenues, learning, prayer, meditation, moderating and adjusting my appetittes and lifestyle. I had to know…and not out of any fear of saving my oily hide from a Hell or from a place of unknowing, but because I felt a relationship with God I had as a child had somewhere along the line been completely severed or hidden from my sight. The world gets in the way, and we lose focus of the longview.

    If you have ever read or heard anything about Zen, you might know what a ‘koan’ is. If not, it’s basically a statement or question that has no logical or practical answer (like the “if a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it, does it make a sound?”)…that kind of thing.

    Well, “Is the Bible inherrent” was my koan at first. I contend that you don’t find absolute answers by way of the mind, but that you become someone who just outgrows the question, or the question becomes one that just isn’t really fit to be answered in any way. The answer is silence. After a while my koan became “if the Bible isn’t inherrent, what is the purpose/point of it”

    And on and on these questions became more refined…probably several hundred times, I won’t bore you with that. But eventually, my search was exhausted. It was just done, and in that moment I knew God. And that was it…done. Not by any exhaustive effort on my part, not because of anything I personally had done. All my efforts were as filthy rags. Grace was all that was left, and it finally just came in because I was ready to know the truth. Not the truth I wanted to believe, or the truth that held me in the most flattering light, but just the truth. And it was simple enough and profound enough that I realized how misguided my search was. It was necessary, but nearly all of my assumptions, about God, Jesus, religion, salvation, myself, this world, were just nonsense and a result of thinking I knew anything for certain. Indeed I don’t know anything. Not any more. The man I was has left the building and has made room for what truly the only thing that is required of anyone. And the Bible, which I never understood at all, is seen point directly to that truth.

    If you have any questions there might be a good chance I’ve asked them to myself many times already. You can reach me at die2sxxf@yahoo.com. I am also annonymous as it makes no difference, and I prefer a life of very little drama and attention. You can’t go wrong here in your faith and search as long as you seek what is true. You know in your heart if you are seeking the truth, and if you don’t that’s the first step. Either way, do not be anxious or fearful, only be curious and do not hold any opinions about anything you don’t understand 100%.

    “If we seek God, we will not find him. But if we do not seek God, he will not find us.” -Rumi

  23. I just want to add that it’s OK not to have faith, or belief or any gods in your life.

    If all religions were simultaneously discredited what would happen?

    nothing. the world wouldn’t end and things would carry on just as they had before.

    There is a deconversion story on my blog (written by a friend) if you’d like to read it and i’m sure many others around the web too. You say elsewhere on your site that you still consider yourself to be a christian yet you roll your eyes at the things you hear regarding belief. Im interested in why you would still feel some comfort in being called christian? is it because you’re scared to let it go (understandable in a way)? or because you don’t know how to “be” any other way?

    i have the personal accounts of 500+ atheists on my website to the question “why are you atheist?” they are a great read over a tea break :)

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  25. Simple Theologian says:

    I find your faithless doubtful. Sorry, poor attempt at humor in regards to your doubt/faith reflection.

    I find that the answer is in the question. If we ask the wrong question we are guaranteed to find the wrong answer.

    I like your blog. What’s your leaderships stance on predestination?

    • I’m sorry I’m a little perplexed as to your question in regards to predestination?

      Are u asking if i’m calvinist or armeninan?
      Do I believe in Free-Will?
      Do I believe in election?
      or saved by grace?

      or how I simply define predestination?

      And just to give you an idea…I do believe in form of predestination, but its not as strict as the Calvinist view.

      • Simple Theologian says:

        Not necessarily you personally but your churches leadership…i.e. lead pastor, board of elders, “doctrine”

      • i/m glad u asked that question because I have never actually looked up the offcial statement of faith by my churh,

        I new there was one thing I disagreed with , but after looking it up their is actually 3-4 other things I disagree with.

        However there is not much in there about pre-destination but this…..

        We believe that all people are sinners by nature and, therefore, are under condemnation; that God saves and regenerates based upon faith by the Holy Spirit,

      • Simple Theologian says:

        Have you sat down and asked the pastoral staff to explain what is being said with the statement of faith to see if how they explain it?

        You never know, what was a statement of faith to the church 15-20 years ago might look different today…I know churches don’t really get excited over this but with new leadership views of the church change. It affects the congregation in many ways. That’s why some people change churches or even “lose faith” over it.

        If we never ask the question we will never find the answer?

      • hello simple theologian

        well, what really took me back in the statement, was that our Church believes the KJV is most accurate bible. I new the church when first setup in the 60′s believed KJV-onlyism, but I thought it had completely moved away from that.

        It seems like they changed wording from KJV-onlyism to KJV-preferdism.

        I have sat down with my pastor, to discuss some differences in belief, like the rapture. which he does believe in, and I don’t. So we did discuss some of that. But I can tell you, he does affirm the beliefs in the statement of faith, but he doesn’t make to much of a big deal, if you have to believe exactly as he does

  26. I like this post, enjoyed this one thanks for putting up.

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