The Argument for and Against A Perfect Creator

I know this topic is overlapping with Intelligent Design and creationism, but I’ll try to focus primarily on the topic at hand.  A Perfect Creator????  And the attributes and character of a perfect creator?

Question #1.  Why would a Perfect being need to ever need to create anything?

The Christian Response/Answer

First of all, what logically prevents God from creating if He is perfect?  Perfection means that God is complete, without error, totally wise, and self-sufficient.  So, what in these qualities means God can’t create the universe?  This atheist says God would be susceptible to greed if He did so.  Really?  So now it is greedy for God to create a universe?  I have to ask, what justifies the atheist to assign such a sin to a holy God?  What does greed have to do with creating anything?  Why can’t God create for His own glory — which would be the greatest good for the most perfect being?  Why can’t God create people so He could love them?  After all, since God is love (1 John 4:8), love gives (John 3:16), and the greatest act of love is to die for another (John 15:13), then why can’t God create the universe and people in order to display the greatest act of love, by becoming one of us and dying for us as is the case with Jesus?

Of course, there are reasons that God has for creating that we just don’t know about.  This is certainly something this atheist should consider, and humility would necessitate confessing his ignorance.  This atheist might want to refrain from judging God, sit down, and consider the fact that there are things he won’t get about the Lord.  He risks a lot by raising a defiant fist to the infinitely powerful and holy Creator.  -C.A.R.M.

The Atheist Response/Answer
However the simple argument for a perfect god is somewhat perplexing.  Because the underlying question, how can perfect being have a need or a desire or a want?  I have heard on several occasions, that we were created so God could be worshiped and glory.  But what need or use does God need for worship if he is perfect?

Argument #1 against the Perfection of God

  1. God is perfect. (premise)
  2. God deliberately created the universe. (premise)
  3. Perfection entails the lack of needs or wants. (premise)
  4. Being perfect, God does not now nor ever has nor ever will have any needs or wants. (from 1, 3)
  5. Deliberate creation entails an effort to satisfy some need or want. (premise)
  6. Being a creator, God at one time had some need or want. (from 2, 5)
  7. It is impossible to have some need or want and also to never have any need or want.
  8. Conclusion: God, if it exists, is either not perfect or has not created anything.

“What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete–it needs nothing else…There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist.” -(Why the Christian God is Impossible By Chad Docterman)

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The Ontological Philosophy of a Perfect God

This is more of the philosophical question of the existence of God and could a perfect God actually exist?  

To many the conceived mindset or the idea of a perfect God presents us with a  philosophical quandary in the ontological and epistemological sense.  That the philosophy & concept of an all perfect being must first exist conceptually in the mind.  In that conceptual existence, God therefore also exist in a real ontological perfection.  As his existence is dependent upon his perfection; If God lacked perfection he would also lack existence.  As his existence is a byproduct of his ontological perfection and as a perfect being he must therefore exist.  Thus, only an all perfect being can produce an ontological mental picture of its own perfect essence, for nothing is more perfect than that being.(?????)  Yeah I know!

This is what is considered a rough sketch of the Ontological Argument.  There are several different ontological arguments, but we will focus on the one using the characteristic of perfection.  The one put forth by Muslim philosopher Mulla Sadra.  The argument attempts to prove the existence of God and his perfection through the reality of existence.

The Ontological Argument put forth by Mulla Sadra

  • There is existence
  • Existence is a perfection above which no perfection may be conceived
  • God is perfection and perfection in existence
  • Existence is a singular and simple reality; there is no metaphysical pluralism
  • That singular reality is graded in intensity in a scale of perfection
  • That scale must have a limit point, a point of greatest intensity and of greatest existence.
  • Hence =God exists.

Here is a simplified version of the Classical Ontological Argument as it relates to perfection….

1. God is the most perfect (‘the greatest’) being conceivable.
2. It is more perfect (‘greater’) to exist than not to exist.
3. Therefore, God must exist.

It is similar to Rene Descartes more popular argument, however somewhat lacking the same sound structure.

  1. God is a being that has all perfections.
  2. Existence is a perfection.
  3. Conclusion: –> God Exist

In addition to this syllogism, Descartes also asserts and concludes in his own writings that the concept of an all perfect, can only come from an all perfect supreme being.  And that really we really should not even doubt the existence of God.  However nice these arguments are, they show existence to be proven abstractly, and we really don’t live in an abstract world.  We live in reality.  There are other ontological arguments that make a better connection from abstract concept to reality, but those don’t add in the attribute of a perfect being.  So there is a slight dilemma philosophically, as some will say that the argument is full of “Hot Air.”  Because it looks like it has weight, but it lacks substance, because it is solely metaphysical , which has always been a folly of abstract philosophical reasoning.

However, there is an Anti-Ontological Argument that has been put forth by some that argue against the idea and philosophy of a perfect God.

Basic Inductive Form

(P1) God is a perfect thing (a perfect being).
(P2) Perfect things are usually nonexistent idealisations of real things.
(P3) Perfect things are unlikely to exist. (from P2)  [some leave this out]
(C) Therefore, it is unlikely that God exists. (from P3 and P1)

Or
Detailed Explanatory Deductive Proof

(Q1) God is a perfect being that created the universe.
(Q2) If God exists, then the world is perfect before the creation of the universe.
(Q3) God would not make the world worse in virtue of his moral perfection.
(Q4) If God exists, then the world is perfect during and after the creation of the universe. (from Q2 and Q3)
(Q5) If God exists, then the world is perfect. (from Q2 and Q4)
(Q6) The world is imperfect.
(C) Therefore, God does not exist. (from Q5 and Q6)

One of the basis premises for this anti-argument is that we live in an imperfect world.  So if a perfect being created an imperfect world, how can we still call it perfect.  Secondly, it also deals with the conceptualization of perfect.  That true perfection is unattainable, because it is only exist conceptually.  An example of this is the Idea of a Perfect circle.  A perfect circle only exist conceptually, but in reality a perfect circle can never exist, because it is made of little tiny small straight lines.  There are many other criticisms of the (perfect) ontological argument.  Like the argument that Perfection does not precede existence or does god exist because he is perfect or the principal that Gods existence even being necessary.

To say God metaphysically exist, and he is conceptually perfection is a distant thought from reality, and will always be the biggest folly of the Abrahamic Religions and the ontology of God.  I think for anyone who believes and confesses that a Perfect God, who is the creator of all things exist has mountain of obstacles to climb.  The reason is because no one denies that the world is flawed and erred.  Yet, the disconnect is the metaphysical reality between an all perfect being and the product of his creation.  That this in itself is an illogical contradiction of common sense.  Therefore Why should I believe that this perfect being exist?

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Whats coming up next?

As for the BitterSweet Blog, I am adding four new pages for the ease of use and navigation purposes.  The main new page will be the Series, Studies and Topics, which will contain a variety of things that I have blogged about in various categories and topics of course.  Also it will contain three new pages:

In addition to all the new pages, I have finally put the final touches on my Perfect God Series.  I have been working on this series for a long while now.  I actually started it way back in the spring of 2011, but the more I worked on it the longer it got.  It initially started off being only four sections long, but it is now seven sections in total.  It goes over things such as the philosophical-ontological meaning of a perfect God, A perfect creator, and Gods perfect law.  I hope yal enjoy it.

In addition to the Perfect God Series, I just started work on two other series:Unanswered Prayers and The Issues of Faith & Reason in Religion.  Usually things become series when I start work on them and the work becomes so large and the topic becomes so exhaustive, I decide to break it down into sections.  Hopefully these two series topics won’t take me a year to complete.

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Is the God of the Bible Confused?

Bible Difficulty #11

Confusion-1 Corinthians 14:33

God is not a God of confusion [disorder] but of peace…” (NIV)

other versions say

God is not the author of confusion, but of peace….”(KJV)

So is God the creator or not the creator of confusion? Wait isn’t God the creator of everything?  For this is a perplexing scripture, because confusion clearly exist, and God is the creator of all things.  He created everything so he must have also created confusion. Nonetheless, I can’t think of any one book that has influenced more confusion than the bible. For a religion to have well over 100 denomination churches & sects to choose from; -to me that looks like confusion to me.  It gets even more confusing, seeing how God uses the art of confusion in war. The bible mentions God’s usage of confusion numerous times especially when talking about the fool in battle against the Midianite Army with Gideon (Judges 7:17-24) and the Amorite Army with Joshua (Joshua 10:10).  Just look at all the examples of Christians debating & killing each other over doctrinal issues. Just look at the countless times God used confusion as a tool of warfare in battle. And his most famous act of confusion, the tower of Babylon where God purposely confused the language of people. So they couldn’t reach the heavens. (Which we have done and surpassed anyways.)

To add to the confusion: Is God, a God of War or Peace?

Premise 1: God is a God of Peace (Romans 15:33 & 1 Corinthians)

Premise 2: God is a God of War (Exodus 15:3)

Conclusion: God is peaceful warrior.  Who destroys cities and conquers land for the sake of peace.

It is somewhat perplexing when you think about. God who is not the author of confusion nor the God of Confusion, but he is the creator of all things. And used confusion as a tool in battle Joshua 10:10 & Gideon 7:19-23. Created various languages for the purpose of confusing the human race from reaching the heavens. Then said he did it because he feared man could do anything. But we ended up reaching the heavens and surpassing it, even in spite of the difference of language. (It seems that God was not too smart in his rationality.)  What are we to make of this?

  • NO- God did not create Confusion-1 Corinthians 14:33
  • YES- God is the creator of Confusion- 1 Corinthians 1:27, and Genesis 11:7-9 [Tower of Babel]. One could ever argue, he authored the confusion of different languages.
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Its the little things

For those who know me I typically don’t blog too much on personal matters, and that’s really just my temperament.  And thats also how I deal with people in the real world.  However this is something I feel like venting about.     

That it’s the little things in our life & relationship, that really show how much we have grown apart at times.  And like any relationship or marriage, we have our ups and our downs.  However, the ups are just not as frequent or as enjoyable as they use to be.  And it’s not just that there are more downs than ups.  It’s that the high moments of joy that were used to repair those down moments in our relationship are not getting it done like they use to.

Most Sundays I still go to church with my wife, but every once a while i stay home, cause I need a break from the non-sense of religion.  Of course it bothers her, because she never thought she would be one of those women that would come to church on Sundays, while their unbelieving husband stays home.  So this is a hard life transition for her as well as me. 

*******

About two years ago, My wife bought me a key chain for Father’s day,  On the key chain was a scripture that she knew I loved, “As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)  So much so that I even had it painted on the wall for a while in one of the back bedrooms when we first moved into our house.  She knew it was one of my favorite scriptures, and one that stood on.  A few days ago I took that piece off my key chain, and my wife found it lying around the house.  And when she found it, I can tell she was very upset.  She didn’t yell or scream.  She was just upset in silence.

I could go and on about the little things affect the day-to-days of our relationship, (I.E.: The Issues of watching T.V., Respect, Home-Schooling, Our friends that are more now her friends)  But really out of all the little things, it’s the gapping whole of the #1 thing we both loved and had in common and now lost…..Our Faith.

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Just another atheist Questionaire

This will probably be my last questionnaire post, I like doing them, because they are fun, simple, and easy to do.  But they don’t serve the true purpose of the blog, which is too examine and evaluate the belief in the Christian God.  This questionnaire I found on the Ballon Man Blog.

1. What would you need in order to become a believer?

Probably first a definition of which God I would be believing in.  And then evidence of that God’s existence.  But if we are talking about the God of the Bible, then I would say nothing considering, I’ve studied Christianity and the bible enough to be able to say confidently that it is a man-made religion just like all the others. 

2. Why are you an atheist?

I would say the Bible turned me into an atheist. “A book that changed me? The Bible. It turned me into an Atheist.”-Andy Hamilton

However, after talking to my wife, I think the term non-theist is probably the most accurate definition of my position. Nontheism by definition is a term that covers a range of both religious and nonreligious[ attitudes characterized by the absence or rejection of theism or any belief in a personal god(s).

3. Why do you think a belief in deity has permeated almost every society and culture since the dawn of mankind?

God was man’s first attempt at science and explaining things.  When man did not understand earthquakes and tectonics plates; it was God.  When man did not understand solar eclipses and the lunar cycle; it was God.  We have now evolved our thinking to include reasoning into our logic.  So that our reasoning for understanding how the world works is not God, but let’s investigate to truly find out how this thing works.  In that we look for scientific answers and not religious ones.  I actually like the way Albert Einstein articulated it. 

Einstein

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Why I am no longer a Christian?

On several occasion I usually get some version of the two following Question and all these questions are really not about the existence of (any generic) God, but Why I don’t ultimately believe in the Christian God.:

  • What is the ONE thing that makes you not believe that God does not exist?
  • What is the ONE big issue for you when it comes to the existence of God?

For me there is no one thing convinces me that God does not exist.  If there was really just one thing, I would probably still be a Christian.  For one unresolved discrepancy was not enough for me to shake my faith back then.  Really for me there were several reasons, many of them I blogged about, but many I did not.  But when it came time for me to resign from my leadership position at the church and tell my wife and pastor that I was no longer a Christian; I had to give them a reason.  So outlined for them the SIX MAJOR issues for why I am no longer a Christian and created a manifesto of some sort.

      1. Bible Difficulties and Contradictions
      2. Historical Discrepancies
      3. Unanswered Prayer
      4. The Character and Attributes of God
      5. Bible Atrocities and Morality
      6. Science

In addition when I sent this email to my loved ones, I also included a rebuttal in the email about the problems and biblical inconsistencies of believing out of Faith.  There were many other things I did not talk about, but which I could of: Classical arguments against God, Failed Prophecy, Faith vs. Reason, problems with organized religion.  Yet I felt these six were the biggest and most damning against the existence of God.  (And in addition to that my manifesto was already long enough, there was no need to make it longer.)  So go ahead and click on the link below if you would like to check it out.

Why I am No Longer a Christian -By M. Rodriguez

I never had any intention of ever putting this attachment on my blog because I was planning with the intention to further expound upon some of the topics in the unofficial manifesto in further detail.  Putting them up in sections and series.  However on the blog Sifting Reality, the Blogger JB asked a question to atheist,: “If you had to narrow it down to one (or two at most) thing, what is the most dubious, implausable, preposterious thing about theism?

And when I listed my six reasons as to why, the response from some the commenter’s were that my listed answers were vague, unsatisfactory, and incomplete and that I need to elaborate.  And I tried to elaborate a little more, but it is really hard to condense 24 pages of information into a comment box, when the 24 pages of information is already condensed enough with information its self.

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Evangelical Atheism

Arkentan a frequent visitor to this blog left this comment on my book review post of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity.  At first I was going to leave just a short reply, but I decided to turn it into a post, because this is a rather relevant topic as to the purpose of my blog.

“You and Nate are INCREDIBLY tolerant of the apologists that comment on your sites. Meanwhile, they have no real interest other than to surreptitiously espouse their nonsense in a vain attempt to demonstrate that you deconversion is just a little bit silly and maybe entice you back to the loving bosom of Jesus. EeeK!  Like Nate, I too have not read this particular book, and after your excellent review I shall give it a miss.”

 

I really couldn’t tell you how Nate feels about this but as for me, I don’t blog just for myself, but for the doubting christians who have unanswered questions. For the skeptical Christians who are unsatisfied with the traditional lackluster answers they get from their pastors, youth pastors and parents. This is why my blog has the tag line motto, Taking a Scalpel to Faith.  During my de-conversion process, I noticed that there were a lot of atheist blogs targeting and de-bunking dogmatic religion; however not all these sites & blogs were christian friendly.  Many are really designed for other atheist to rant about christians with a slight tendency to mock and ridicule.

Evangelical Atheism

Coming from a Christian Evangelical environment you have to care about the general well-being of people.  And what I mean by christian evangelical environment is not vote republican and be against things like same-sex marriage and abortion.  I’m talking about evangelizing to people, giving them the gospel, passing out tracks, and knocking on doors and praying for people when they need.  In that christian type of environment only those who truly care about people can do that type of ministry work, because Christian ministry is a PEOPLE business.  Because I do care about the general well-being of people, I do desire to see them out of their dogmatic delusion, but not with the tool of ridicule.

In addition to that I don’t mind being challenged in my unbelief, because I know I am more likely to change another’s mind, before they ever convert me.

It is easier to wins someones heart, before you ever win over their mind.

It is easier to reach and change someones heart, than their mind.  As the old proverb goes….”You can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar.”   So coming from that background, here is the thing I noticed and why it does not bother me when a christian (apologist) makes a statement on my blog, because it’s not about what they say or do.  It’s about what I say and how I react.  There is a reason there are so many stories of atheist becoming christians, it is the generally warm loving environment that Christians like to paint.  And the atmosphere of love and community.  Really that is something atheist can’t compete with.  And many don’t care for.  But we all need community and love, more than the we need to be intellectually correct.

“We can be as intellectually correct as much as we want, but if we don’t genuinely care about the wellbeing of a person it means NOTHING.” -(M. Rodriguez, from my guest post on the Confessions of a former Y.E.C. Blog)

Plain in Simple:  How we treat people does have a relative impact on what they believe or not believe.  And kindness is one of the greatest impacts we can have on a person no matter how much evidence we may present.

 

 

*Additional Update 2/16:  As I am not the only atheist who feels this way and recommends this approach with believers.  Camels with Hammers from F.T.B. has two articles into his thoughts on Evangelical Atheism and Can You Really Love Religious People If You Hate Their Religion?
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The Christian Delusion

{A Word of Caution, this video does have cursing, offensive, and fowl language.}

I remember watching this video by Richard Carrier and being struck with the premise that Carrier calls Christianity a delusion.  I remember thinking that was a very strong accusation; until Carrier actually explained what a Delusion is and I Googled the definition of what a Delusion is.

    • A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
    • A fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
    • A systematized delusion is a group of delusions organized around a common theme.
    • In Psychiatry it is a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason.

As Sam Harris puts it, “While believing strongly, without evidence, is considered a mark of madness or stupidity in any other area of our lives, faith in God still holds immense prestige in our society.  Religion is the one area of our discourse where it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about.

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Book Review: Mere Christianity By C.S. Lewis

This is one the most highly regarded apologetic books in history.  It is claimed to have turned atheist to Christians, and non-believers to believers.  Considering the reputation of the book, it was a must read.

C.S. Lewis has a literary style consisting of analogies, common sense, and everyday language so that even the ordinary reader can get a full grasp of the moral compass of Christianity.  Mere Christianity was adapted from a series of BBC radio talks while Lewis was at Oxford during World War II.

Pros: Overall Lewis makes many good theological points throughout the book.  The general idea of the book to provide a cumulative case structure for morality as it relates to Christianity and God.  The book is divided into four sections: 1) Right & Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe.  2) What Christians Believe. 3) Christian Behaviour. 4) Beyond Personality: Our First Steps in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

In the first chapter he makes a case for defining morality as it is perceived in nature and history.  That the Law of Human Nature is a Real Moral Right and Wrong.  In that, “whenever you find a man who say he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same person going on this a moment later.“(pg. 6)  This pretty much summarizes the first part of the book.

Sections two and three are pretty self-explanatory based on the title of the section.  He does make another valid point when it comes to not just Christian behavior and belief.  But mankinds code of ethics and behavior.

“Ninety-Nine per cent of the things you believe are believed on authority.  Believing things on authority only means believing them because you have been told them by someone you think trustworthy.”  (pg. 62)

And the final section of the book was the longest.  Pretty much at this point in the book, he is no longer trying to prove his case for a higher being with Human Nature and Morality.  He is more going over some relevant topics, such as marriage, doctrine, freewill, as moral goodness demonstrates and reflects that of Christianity.  With his best advice really coming in his section on marriage:

“Being in love is a good thing, but it is not the best thing…Knowledge can last, principles can last, habits can last, but feelings come and go.” (pg. 108-109)

Meaning it takes more than the words, ‘I love you‘ to keep a relationship sustaining.

Cons:  In all honesty, I absolutely hated this book.  I unequivocally abhorred reading Mere Christianity.  When talking to my wife and referring to the book, I would call it; “That God -Awful Book.”  I think one of the reasons why I hated the books so much also, is because I had such high expectations of it going in.  It was probably the most highly recognized regarded apologetic that people recommended to me.  It is said that this book has converted atheist to believers.  So I did have high expectations, I was expected to be challenged in my unbelief, and for it to provide a convincing argument for the belief in God, yet it highly disappointed.

I should have know something was up, when I came across this quote in the first section.

“…Though there are differences between the moral ideas of one or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great-not nearly so great as most people imagine”(pg. 12)

I whole heartedly disagreed with this statement, I even put in my notes, as I reading this book, ‘that this statement is a terrible statement.’

Let me illustrate:

Moral ideas do change with cultures, societies, laws, and traditions.  Just take for example the last 500 years of history in the changes of Woman’s Suffrage, Child Labor, Racism, and Slavery.  500 years ago, these were all perfectly acceptable and ethical practices.  And in another 50 years we can probably add Gay Rights and Abortion to that list.  It doesn’t take much to realize how flawed and senseless this statement truley is.  We can even take the Bible as an example; -take the issue of Rape.  If you were to ask the average person is Rape always wrong in every situation?  And the average person would say YES, but not according to the bible. One would think that the bible would condemn rape out right, but surprisingly the bible does not. In one part of Deuteronomy the stipulation of punishment for the victim depends on where she got raped at and if she screamed loud enough.

23If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

Yet,the part that is most disturbing is this:

28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,29he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

It does not take a rocket scientist to tell that there is something seriously wrong with this scripture.  Even the bible and modern history contradict Lewis’ statement, and shows that morality through the lenses of time and culture drastically changes.

Another thing that deeply perturbed me about the book was his definition of Human Nature or Law of Human Nature.  It was almost like he playing semantics with the word.  He defined it as a Real Moral Right or Wrong, which is completely backwards to the scientific and academic terminology. When you attach the word Nature to Human, we are not simply talking about an individuals moral beliefs, but the scientific patterns of man-kinds social, psychological, and biological patterns. In that we can reasonably infer man-kinds human nature in patterns with expectation. It was like he just made up his own definition to fit the structure of his book. (And there is nothing wrong with making up a new way to define something, but when you use a word that already has preconceived notion to it, then you diminishing the true definition and value of the word.  The best example I can give for this is when people use Hitler to describe the character of another person.  That is diminishing the true atrocities of what Hitler did, because there is no person in our modern times can truly compare to Hitler.  No matter how much we may not like that individual.)

Now I know some may be thinking, maybe I would have enjoyed it more as a believer.  I doubt that.  In fact, I doubt I would have even finished the book.  I probably would have put it down after this Liberal Christianity statement he made:

“If you are a Christian you do not have to believe that all the other religions are simply wrong all through…If you are a Christian, you are free to think that all those religions, even the queerest ones, contain at least some hint of the truth.” (pg. 35)

Considering I was bible-believing Christian, this statement really bothered me.  That this book is based on one mans preconceived notions of a God.  That it was not based on scripture.  And come to find out I was right.  He does make many theological points, but he does not reference scripture too much in the book and Lewis’ book is not an entirely accurate representation of biblical christianity.  And as Christian that would have tremendously bothered me.

Final Thought:  As I was finishing the book, one person asked me why I didn’t like the book.  I said it the most simplistic expression… ‘that C.S. Lewis is the King of Inductive Reasoning and Analogies.  In that he has an analogy or metaphor for everything.‘  I get the impression that Mere Christianity was written for those who have never read the bible and those who have never read the bible would enjoy it the most.

For me in closing, the Greatest Disappointment about this book was that there was no proof or argument for God.  It was simply an argument for the existence of morality.

Posted in apologetic, apologetics, apologist, atheism, atheist, atheist vs christian, best apologist, Book Review, evil, human nature, marriage, quote | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 21 Comments

Can we all just get along.

So I saw a post on the blog, Is there a God titled, why does it have to be a war?  And my initial reaction to this post was one of agreement that it doesn’t have to be a war or a war of words.  However that opinion of mine is starting to change.

I sit in church almost every Sunday and occasionally do a mid-week bible study with the wife, and I can now understand why some atheist Hate religion and especially the Church. Because out of one side of their mouth they will say I love you to your face, but out of the other side of their mouth in the pulpit; the unbeliever will be spoken about as something disgusting that needs to be cleansed. That doubt and unbelief is a sin and of the worst kinds of sin.  And yes that is something that I have heard on a Sunday morning.

At times it feels like my position on the existence of God is spoken of so negatively that one would think I am their enemy. But when its all over, its hugs and smiles.

It’s almost like that mentality. You are either with us or against us. And I can see it on both sides. Its hard to come to a common ground when the bible itself says that it would prefer you either hot or cold.  And that the bible says that there is only one thong worst than an atheist.  (I Timothy 5:8)  But all others rapists, terrorist, child molesters are much preferable company than an atheist.  The Bible even equates the unbelieving atheist to lawlessness, wickedness, and darkness.  (II Corinthians 6:14-15)  It even goes so far as to say a Christian should not even eat with someone who has rejected the gospel.  And let’s not forget the all to infamous Old Testament scripture where it implies to kill those who don’t hold to the same faith.

All one needs to do is read the old testament to see how mad God got when his people the Israelites compromised their faith and beliefs.  And let’s be honest with ourselves, religion at its fundamental core is uncompromising and unwavering.  Not just in christianity, but in all the Abrahamic religions.  As the bible says, the I am the way, “The truth, and the light. No one can come to the father except through me.”  And how can anyone compromise or even befriend that mentality.

In all fairness, atheist are not completely innocent either in that some feel (mostly just the new atheist movement) that it is okay to mock and ridicule the Christian.  That the entire institute of religion is a handicap upon our world. At first I thought this was a very radical standpoint, but not so much anymore. As Christopher Hitchens persuades; religion is a plague upon our societies unlike no other.  That in the general thinking of these two mind sets; atheism and Christianity. We can’t both be right. One of us has to be wrong.

As Sam Harris says in his letter to a Christian nation, that we should “...be honest with ourselves: in the fullness of time, one side is really going to win this argument, and the other side is really going to lose.

As I am only one man giving my opinion. I’ve never had a personally bad experience with religion until I was on the outside of religion. Yet in my short experience there is no compromise and yes it is a war ( of words).  And it appears to me that its the (radical) religious that declared it.

Posted in atheism, atheist, atheist vs christian, bible, character, christian faith, christopher hitchens, church, creationism, debate, emotions, evolution, evolution vs. creation, Free-Thought, freethinker, laws of logic, quote, religion, religion vs. science, sam harris, scripture, scripture alone, unbelief | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 6 Comments

Did Apostle John and Apostle Peter write their epistles?

Bible Difficulty #10

Could the Apostle John & Peter read and write?  Were they illiterate?

Most conservative evangelicals hold to the traditional view that both Apostle John and Apostle Peter were the original authors of their epistle, but historical and literary critics have almost unanimously concluded that to be impossible.  Now this is something I came across, after watching some YouTube videos on agnostic scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman.  He claims that there is no way for John and Peter for them to have written their New Testament works.

Simon Peter and John were both common ordinary fishermen.  Likely illiterate fishermen.  In fact, when Jesus approached Peter for the first time, he was at work fishing.  So, it is hard to imagine they were both was able to read and write.  Nonetheless read, write, and speak fluently in both Greek and Aramaic.  So the idea that (Simon) Peter and John were both able to compose such a highly regarded charismatic literary works with such a high degree of literary skill is highly improbable.  Here are two more points as to why these works are considered forgeries.

  • Peter 1: Although attributed to Peter, it is widely doubted by most scholars, on the basis of the fact that the author of this book cites Greek translations of the Old Testament, instead of the Hebrew originals. This questionable book contains the fundamentalists’ slogan, “born again” (1 Peter 1:23)
  • Peter 2: This book has even more doubtful authorship that Peter 1, so much so that it was delayed entrance into the New Testament’s canon. It is generally believed that it was written by an unknown scribe around 150 AD.
  • There is no external evidence prior to Origen indicating that Peter wrote 2 Peter. Origen himself mentions that there were some doubts as to its authenticity, but he himself did not deal with the problem which seems to imply that he didn’t take the doubts seriously.
  • The Muratorian Canon did not contain 2 Peter, but it also omits 1 Peter, so this is not a decisive factor. Eusebius rejected it but indicated that the majority accepted the epistle, including James and Jude. Jerome also accepted 2 Peter as authentic.

Historical research does suggest it is possible, that Jesus and a few of the disciples were able to speak and understand both Greek and Aramaic.  Since that part of the world was heavily engulfed in the Hellenistic Jewish culture.  It is very plausible that they both spoke Greek. However, when we examine what the bible says about the men, it throws another huge discrepancy into the mix.

“Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men…”-Acts 4:13.  (Some versions say uneducated, unschooled, unlearned, common, and ordinary.  It all means the same illiterate.)

In Bart Ehrmans Book “Forged,” he claims that:

* At least 11 of the 27 New Testament books are forgeries.

* The New Testament books attributed to Jesus’ disciples could not have been written by them because they were illiterate.

* Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.

As one examines the arguments for both sides, it becomes evident that analysis of stylistic differences is subjective and can be used to prove any hypothesis. When dealing with such a small corpus as 2 Peter, it is difficult to make strong conclusions. – (Hampton Keathly IV, The Authorship of Second Peter)

The most common rebuttal to these allegations of fraud is that the apostles used scribes to dictate and write for them.  In asserting that allegations of forgeries is circumstantial evidence and presumptuous.  ”[For] the ultimate answer may be there really is no forgery here…The differences in style of I Peter and II Peter may be easily explained by something amanuensis (that means scribe or ghostwriter). That does not mean that the scribe “wrote” the book for the author as Dr. Ehrman as claimed in Jesus Interrupted. It means that the scribe penned the letter.For I Peter, Silas was the scribe( see I Peter 5:12).  For II Peter, written just before his death, someone  transcribed his words who had less command of the Greek language…There is some evidence in II Peter that the audience changed to the Christian community as a whole where I Peter was directed to Jewish Christians in Asia Minor.”  -Papapound from the Good News Blog

With the I Peter clearly giving evidence and credit to Silas for dictation.  This actually becomes more damning evidence, because you don’t see that same acknowledgement of dictation in II Peter or in any of the works of John.

It is nearly impossible to imagine that they were able to read and write in Greek considering they had no formal education.  Nonetheless; Is it still reasonable to assume that they were both able to read & write FLUENTLY in Greek to a high literary degree and skill to be able to compose some of the New Testament writings we have today without a formal education?

Posted in Abductive reasoning, apologetics, apostle, atheist vs christian, bart ehrman, bible contradictions, biblical difficulties, christian fraud, debate, deceived, doubt, early christian history, ehrman project, history, textual criticism | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , | 9 Comments

The Contradictory Tone of Jesus vs. Paul

The Scriptural Difficulties of an Inerrant & Infallible Bible

Please forgive the creepy back ground music.  This is a video I found on YouTube.  The thing I found the most interesting about the video, is that it recognizes the truth and fallacy of inerrancy; that if ONE ERROR no matter how big or small is in the bible.  The Bible is no longer considered inerrant (nor infallible).

Posted in bible, biblical difficulties, biblical inerrancy, confusion, debate, fallacious, inerrancy, infalliable, jesus, jesus the christ, jesus the messiah, message, paul the apostle, read your bible, youtube | Tagged , , , | 3 Comments

The Tiresomeness of Going to Church as an Atheist

I asked Limey from the Confessions of a Y.E.C. Blog to do a contribution post on the topic of dealing with emotional tiresomeness of going to church as an atheist.  I asked him because I can already feel the emotional toll it has already taken upon me, so I sought him out, since he has already gone through this experience.

When I first started on my journey from Christian to Atheist I had no idea where it would lead or what would happen. The idea that I would find church tiresome never occurred to me. In fact, when I first started to wonder if atheism was indeed the end result of my journey, I still expected that I would attend church because that’s what my family did and to stop that family activity would be a step too far.

At first it wasn’t difficult to keep going. Pretending was easy because I knew everything; the songs, the rituals, the regular sermon materials, the prayers; everything was so familiar, how could it possibly be difficult to keep going and hide my lack of belief?

My faith died slowly and so the problems with church crept in slowly too. It started with the first conversation that I had with my wife about the state of my faith. I admitted to her I had doubts and I was struggling with the faith I once had. That was the moment when Church started to be a problem. Up until then I kept all my concerns and my doubts a secret and so attending church was not really questioned because I had no public reason not to go.

Once I started to be open about my waning Christian faith the conflict between what I believed (or didn’t believe) and the requirements of Christian belief in church became harder to ignore. It started with being cautious about how enthusiastically to sing the songs, especially those of a more worshipful nature. The more intimate aspects of Christian worship also became a problem; especially communion. After that first conversation with my wife I ceased taking communion, but that was not enough, simply being there for a communion service made me uncomfortable so I stopped attending communion services. It wouldn’t be long before all church attendance stopped, I don’t miss it at all. I now enjoy the alone time I get at home when the family is at church, it’s a time I cherish as mine and I feel would be wasted if I spent it at church instead.

When I first saw the word tiresomeness in the suggested title for this post I stopped to think, “is that how I view church now?” I’m not sure if it is the most accurate word to describe my situation. However, it does fit reasonably well and I am sure there are those who would certainly embrace that description. Tiresome fits because for me as an atheist the goings on in church are meaningless, worse than that, those that attend and take part are simply taking part in superstition and irrelevant ritual. The being they appeal to does not exist and that means the claims on which they base their whole system of belief are without foundation.

That above may sound harsh, but for an atheist stepping into church and attending a service, that is exactly what is being thought. It equates to a climate scientist attending a meeting of climate change deniers, or an evolutionary biologist attending a creationist meeting or an astronomer attending an astrology meeting. When an atheist such as myself attends a church service everything that gets said and done is very familiar, and that means their mind is full of reasonable objections to everything that gets said and done. Relaxing is not possible because the mind is being assaulted by false arguments and illogical reasoning; a recent example being the challenge to “look out at the world and not see God in the beauty of His creation”.

An atheist can’t listen to that every week and not get affected negatively. It is tiresome because the mind has to rebuff attempts to make belief in god logical and reasonable when the real truth is that it is not.

At the start of my journey I really did believe that I could continue it and remain a church-goer. It turns out I was wrong. More than that, it is tiresome to listen to a message that one has consciously rejected. There is also a deeper dimension here that I am only just realizing; if I wish to support my wife in her church activities or to remain friends with the pastor it’s important for me to not be in a place where I view their actions unfavorable, which would be the case if I continued to go to church.

Freedom From Religion Foundation

Freedom From Religion Foundation (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

So church can be tiresome for a former Christian and this particular one has found it to be so, which is why he’s now stopped.

Posted in church, conference, doubt faith, emotions, Free-Thought, freethinker, guest post, jesus, reason, reasoning, religion, trust your bible | Tagged , , , , , , | 12 Comments

Book Review: The Case for Christ By Lee Strobel

There are pretty much two books, that have been recommended to me over and over.  That’s Mere Christianity By C.S. Lewis and this book The Case for Christ By Lee Strobel.  I just ordered Mere Christianity so that book review will probably be posted in a little bit. Lee Strobel has been highly recommended because he was a former atheist now turned Christian.  Strobel took an investigative style approach to christianity and sought out leading christian scholars to get his questions answered.  He interviewed heavy hitters like: William Lane Craig, Bruce Metzger, J.P. Moreland, Craig Bloomberg, Gary Habermas, and many others, etc.

He has written other books like the Case for Faith, and the Case for the Creator, but for anyone who would want a snapshot of the book you can watch his trailer on YouTube here.

Pros:  Surprisingly, the Book actually got better the more I read it.  The most impressive thing about The Case for Christ was its selection of Christian Scholars.  I was impressed, because in my own personal studies of questioning and doubting my faith these were some of the same guys I read articles from.  Especially William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland who were probably the two most influential on me.  He even had the late Bruce Metzger who is respected by both secular and christian scholars.

The breakdown of the book is sectioned into three parts, 1) The Record;  with a focus on historical manuscript evidence, textual criticism and Archeology.  2) Analyzing Jesus;  Analyzing the profile of Jesus and the Christ.  3) Researching the Resurrection.  The last section on the resurrection was hands down the most interesting and informative.  It really opened my eyes and mind, with my favorite Chapter being Chapter 12-The Evidence for the Missing Body.  Dr. Craig provided a very compelling argument for the events surrounding Jesus’ death and tomb.  Then capped it off with a very thought-provoking question; especially for those skeptics who believe Jesus may have existed but that Jesus was not who he said he was.

“There was nobody who was claiming that the tomb still contained Jesus’ body.  The question always was, ‘What happened to the body?’(The Case for Christ, Pg. 297)

Cons:  Even though there were parts I enjoyed, there were equally as much parts that made me want to pull my hair out; mainly the first section, because this is what I was most familiar with and spent so much personal time studying.  It started on pg. 26 of the book, when the Christian Scholar Dr. Craig Bloomberg stating in the beginning, that “It’s important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are written anonymous.”  However even in knowing that; he still believes they written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John which is a belief only repeated on the basis of church tradition.  Furthermore, when pressured with the question of certainty on authorship he implores Lazy Logic and responds with…”So to answer your question, there would not have been any reason to attribute authorship to these three less respected people if it weren’t true.”(Pg. 27)  Pretty much he is saying in argument, ‘Who else could of wrote it?’

This is not the only section where Lazy Logic is implored, but it also used in the reconciling of the discrepant bible difficulties of the Genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke.  Instead of concluding with sound reason, Lazy Logic is used in saying it could have possibly been that one genealogy is Joseph’s and the other Mary’s.  Or that one is a legal genealogy and the other is a biological genealogy.

In addition to that, all of the extra-biblical historical accounts referenced in the Case for Christ are not eyewitness accounts.  Not only that, the Gospels themselves are not even consider eyewitness accounts.  They are not considered eyewitness accounts because 1.They are written some 30-50 years after Jesus died.  2.The literary style does not reflect an eyewitness account because it was written in third-person.

The reason I am being so nit-picky on this section, is because I have personally spent so much time studying and reading about early christian history and textual criticism, that to give a very lazy answer is unsettling.  I personally think the first part of the book should have been retitled: Introduction to Early Christian History, because that is what it was; An Introduction.

Final Thought:  Lastly, probably the biggest folly to the book was its own skepticism.  Given that he was the only skeptic in the book and he interviewed only Christian scholars and no atheist/skeptic scholars; one begins to question the unbiased journalistic investigation.  Nonetheless, I would highly recommend the book for anyone who is interested in this topic because he it is probably the most deep and thorough theological and archaeological christian book on this topic, but if you have many tough skeptical questions the Case for Christ may still leave you with a lot of unanswered questions.  Because the book will only go so deep.

 

Posted in apologist, Book Review, christ, christian history, early christian history, fallacious reasoning, gary habermas, gospel of matthew, history, jesus, jesus the christ, jesus the messiah, Lee Strobel, matthew, message, messiah, religion, skeptic, skepticism, textual criticism, youtube | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 18 Comments

Defending your Faith-Free Life

Reblogged from Triangulations:

Click to visit the original post

Let's start with a Bible quote and my coined definition:

...Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
-- 1 Peter 3:15

A Theological Christian:  a self-professing Christian who has feels they understand the Bible and theological issues such that they talk about their faith using apologetic strategies to fulfill the advice of the writer of 1 Peter.

Read more… 438 more words

To think and to be fully alive are the same.” -Hannah Arendt
Posted in apologetic, apologetics, atheism, belief, christian faith, Free-Thought, freethinker, inspiration, philosophy, purpose, quote, reason, reasonable evidence, religion, Response, theology, unbelief | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , | 8 Comments

Being in a Mixed marriage Christian-Atheist, the issues that come up, and overcoming the issues of dogma

One of the common struggles of a newly de-converted believer is his/her relationship with their believing spouse.  So I asked Limey from the Confessions of a Y.E.C. Blog to give a little of his background, experiences, and advise for one who is going through a similar situation.

The History

My wife and I were both brought up in Christian households and developed our own personal faith as teens and young adults. My wife grew up in an average UK Town while I was brought up in a missionary environment in Central Africa. When we met and eventually married, my wife is what would be called a liberal Anglican while I was a Creationist, taking the bible literally.

Creationism in the UK has never been the big issue that it is in America and the public battle between vocal Creationists and strident Atheists that has been getting noisier in America for decades is still something that most people in the UK are largely ignorant of.

Through many years of marriage our relative Christian positions changed little. We moved from an Anglican Church of England church to a Baptist Church. Baptist Churches in the UK are more liberal than American readers would expect from what I read of American Baptist Churches. They are certainly nothing like the Southern Baptist Churches that I hear much about. We did the usual thing that young (ish) couples do in churches, help out in the youth and related areas. My wife being musically gifted puts much effort into the worship, often leading.

Change and Challenge

My journey away from Christianity started when I began to seriously question my creationist beliefs and actually investigate evolution for myself. I started reading what the scientists said and comparing those claims with the apologetic counter arguments. Time and time again I found that the creationist arguments were no more than objections. The weight of argument, evidence and reason is firmly on the side of the scientists. It wasn’t long before I found myself facing the very real truth that my creationist belief had crumbled and I was an acceptor of evolution. Three years later I gave up on Christianity entirely and no longer accepted any form of deity.

Keeping Secrets

The hardest part by far was what to do with my change of belief.

I knew I should come clean and have an honest conversation with those nearest me; especially my wife.

The thing was, by this stage in our lives, while we lived as Christians, we no longer shared our faith intimately. We didn’t pray before meals, we didn’t study the bible together and we didn’t pray together. Our Christian lives were independent of our married life and had been for some time. This meant that discussing something as intimate as doubts over faith was not something that came naturally between us. As a result I had absolutely no idea how to tell my wife about my change or even how to drop a hint or raise a question. This realisation scared me because it became apparent that I wasn’t actually sure how she would respond.

Continue reading

Posted in atheist, atheist vs christian, christian, church, creation, creationism, debate, doubt, doubt faith, emotions, evolution vs. creation, freedom, guest post, history, life, love, marriage, reason, religion, religion vs. science, skeptic, skepticism, The Thinking Atheist, unbelief | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 22 Comments

In Anticipation of the last day I Blog

The last day I blog

I do think about the last day I ever blog again the BitterSweet End. And I know that this would be a very bittersweet day, because even though I really enjoy the outlet of having this blog.  The last day I no longer need this blog, will be the day I no longer need this outlet.  It will be a day I no longer feel the need to talk about religion, god, or even atheism.  It will be a day I no longer feel the need to defend non-belief.  It will be a bittersweet day, because I will be free to move on with my life, and simply just live and no longer have to think or worry about religious dogma and all the nonsense that comes with it.

I know on that day, it will no longer matter on what I believe, but how I live out the rest of my life.

Posted in religion | Tagged , , | 9 Comments

My De-Conversion in One Sentence

“A book that changed me? The Bible. It turned me into an Atheist.”

-Andy Hamilton
*I have since updated my ABOUT page to include my de-conversion. Feel free to check on my new About page. To get the full de-conversion, check out  the link here.
Posted in atheist, bible, bible study, biblical difficulties, Common Sense, doubt faith, Free-Thought, freedom, freethinker, god, message, purpose, quote, read your bible, reason, reasoning, scriptural difficulties | Tagged , , , , , , , , | 4 Comments

An infinite God and his limitations

How could an infinite God take on limitations?  Could God still be infinite if he is limited?

Well before we tackle this question, let’s define the topic as according to some traditional apologetics.  “The infinite nature of God simply means that God exists outside of and is not limited by time or space. Infinite simply means ‘without limits.’  When we refer to God as infinite, we generally refer to Him with terms like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.”  As stated by the Christian apologetic website Got Questions.org.  Basically meaning God can do anything and everything, and nothing is impossible for God because he is infinite in nature.

To some this might seem like a nit-picky post, but I’m just pointing out the obvious.  That if we say God is infinite & without limits.  And then in the next sentence and same breath we say God can’t…(Fill in Blank Attribute.).   Then we are confessing with our own lips that this (semi-)infinite god does have a speed limit.

I can even remember people telling me that the God of the bible is Sovereign and can do anything; he chooses to put limits on himself.  Wait, a minute…Does that even make common sense? Why would a celestial  deity even need or want limitations.  Yet in some forms of Judeo-Christianity theologians such as Duns Scotus say that the ‘infinite’ nature of God invokes a sense of being without constraint, rather than a sense of being unlimited in quantity.  (Whatever that really means?!?!?!)

However there are several examples in scripture & reality where there appears to be limits and restrictions on God.

    • Biblical examples:  He couldn’t find Adam & Eve in the garden.  He cannot forgive certain sins.  He can’t perform miracles in the face of someones unbelief.
    • Reality examples:  He can’t make everyone believe he exist.  He choose to become human and take upon himself human limitations.  He can’t lie or sin.  Why would an infinite God need rest?  (As shown in the seven day creation in gen. 1)

So the common Christian apologetic response to all of this is: Who are we to question and try to understand an infinite God with our limited knowledge?  Now this is what leads us into another definition of infinite that gets thrown around; that an “Infinite God” is immeasurable, unsearchable, and unknowable.  That infinity is the term man uses to describe something that cannot be counted or measured and God is surely immeasurable.  (Attributes of God, as presented by the parent company.)  That we finite beings, could never fully comprehend nor understand the mind of an infinite being.  However this is not a real argument.   It is blatant reasoning from ignorance.

However there are so many problems not only with the concept of God, but the concept of an infinite and limitless God.

  1. Something that exist has limits to its actual existence
  2. God is infinite meaning Without Limits or Limitless
  3. Therefore if God exist, he can not be infinite.
  4. However in Conclusion: If God is infinite, he cannot actually exist, except for conceptually.

What I am really trying to get at in this post article, is that the idea that if something truly and undoubtedly exist, it has to have limitations.  It’s the limitation of existence that makes something measurable to verify it’s existence.  In the end the concept of being and existing, requires limitations.  And existence means limitations.  The only thing that does not have limitations are the concepts and dreams we make up.  

Related articles:

Posted in atheist vs christian, attributes, attributes of God, biblical difficulties, character, christian fraud, Common Sense, confusion, contradiction, freethinker, god, infinite, logic, skeptic, skepticism, theology | Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , | 46 Comments