The Argument for and Against A Perfect Creator

This Post is Part of Series of Post called Dissecting the Anatomy of God.
Quick View: Table of Contents,

I know this topic is overlapping with Intelligent Design and creationism, but I’ll try to focus primarily on the topic at hand.  A Perfect Creator????  And the attributes and character of a perfect creator?

Question #1.  Why would a Perfect being need to ever need to create anything?

The Christian Response/Answer

First of all, what logically prevents God from creating if He is perfect?  Perfection means that God is complete, without error, totally wise, and self-sufficient.  So, what in these qualities means God can’t create the universe?  This atheist says God would be susceptible to greed if He did so.  Really?  So now it is greedy for God to create a universe?  I have to ask, what justifies the atheist to assign such a sin to a holy God?  What does greed have to do with creating anything?  Why can’t God create for His own glory — which would be the greatest good for the most perfect being?  Why can’t God create people so He could love them?  After all, since God is love (1 John 4:8), love gives (John 3:16), and the greatest act of love is to die for another (John 15:13), then why can’t God create the universe and people in order to display the greatest act of love, by becoming one of us and dying for us as is the case with Jesus?

Of course, there are reasons that God has for creating that we just don’t know about.  This is certainly something this atheist should consider, and humility would necessitate confessing his ignorance.  This atheist might want to refrain from judging God, sit down, and consider the fact that there are things he won’t get about the Lord.  He risks a lot by raising a defiant fist to the infinitely powerful and holy Creator.  –C.A.R.M.

The Atheist Response/Answer
However the simple argument for a perfect god is somewhat perplexing.  Because the underlying question, how can perfect being have a need or a desire or a want?  I have heard on several occasions, that we were created so God could be worshiped and glory.  But what need or use does God need for worship if he is perfect?

Argument #1 against the Perfection of God

  1. God is perfect. (premise)
  2. God deliberately created the universe. (premise)
  3. Perfection entails the lack of needs or wants. (premise)
  4. Being perfect, God does not now nor ever has nor ever will have any needs or wants. (from 1, 3)
  5. Deliberate creation entails an effort to satisfy some need or want. (premise)
  6. Being a creator, God at one time had some need or want. (from 2, 5)
  7. It is impossible to have some need or want and also to never have any need or want.
  8. Conclusion: God, if it exists, is either not perfect or has not created anything.

“What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete–it needs nothing else…There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist.” -(Why the Christian God is Impossible By Chad Docterman)

If God is perfect, then God can’t have any needs or wants; hence, God wouldn’t bother creating something. If God deliberately creates something, it must be because of some need or want — even if it is as simple as curiosity.

Question #2.  What are the attributes of a perfect Creator?  Does reality reflect that of a perfect creator?

The Christian Response/Answer

  1. Living things are too well-designed to have originated by chance.
  2. Therefore, life must have been created by an intelligent or perfect creator.
  3. This creator is God.

Well the believer might infer or suggest that… “A human being is a creation of God; and so by default he/she can only be less than God, and so less than perfect. Thus a human is naturally imperfect. This goes for the world too.” –Islamic Reflections

The Atheist Response/Answer
For some the previous monologue is sufficient, however for me it is not, because if a Person, Deity or a God makes the claim for being perfect.  Then I would expect perfection.

I find this to be the most troubling characteristic/attribute of the God of Judeo-Christianity. It is hard for me now to imagine and believe that Yahweh an all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely wise and most importantly a Perfect deity; that he be creator of such a flawed & fallacious reality.  I think for me when I think of a perfect God, who is the creator and cause of all things, I think of a perfect world, a perfect universe, peace, joy, happiness, and no illogical suffering. But here is the thing I don’t see those things, so why should I still believe that God is perfect?  If God was that perfect creator, is it unreasonable to expect perfection and flawlessness?  Like the bible says….We should judge a tree by the fruit that it bears.

Argument #2 against the Perfection of God

  1. God is perfect. (premise)
  2. God deliberately created the universe. (premise)
  3. The universe, or at least aspects of it, is not perfect. (premise)
  4. Nothing deliberately created by a perfect being can be imperfect. (premise)
  5. Conclusion: this universe was not created by a perfect being.

Question #3.  Can Something Imperfect come out of Something perfect?  And if so, can we still call it perfect?

The Atheist Response/Answer
One of the common things I have heard is why would a perfect being create an imperfect man.  I think the larger question is, Can something imperfect come out of something perfect? And then can we still call it perfect?

The unbeliever attest that is not only illogical but lack of common sense to believe that God is still perfect when he has created something imperfect.  And well, the unbeliever is right, it is illogical to call God perfect, if he messed up and made a mistake in his creation.  How can we still call him PERFECT GOD, if he is the producer of a bad and fallacious design.  This is referred to in some cases as the Argument from Bad Design.

It is mind-numbing for me or anyone to believe that a perfect deity would create such a flawed design.  One could assume that this perfect being was too lazy create something else as perfect as himself.  OR egotistical with Low-Self Esteem such that he would only want to be the only perfect entity in all the universe.  So that this perfect being can boast and brag about how much more perfect he is than his own creation.  OR Invalid and incompetent, cause this perfect cannot and is unable to create something also with the attribute of perfection.  Rendering himself no longer perfect.

If the answer is then Yes, then we also have to believe that this perfect being created this imperfect universe and imperfect earth and imperfect creatures.  However irrational this belief is, the Christian does have an answer for it.  The answers are the following:

God created Man with Free-Will, for the sense and purpose of worshiping him.  It’s not a perfect answer, but its an answer.   However this answer is insufficient, because it only applies to matters of human creation.  What about other matters that are more geological and environmental, like (I.E.: Nuclear Waste, Famine, Cancerous Disease, or Male Baldness) these can’t all be products of Free-Will.

The (very liberal) Christian Response/Answer
Then the second answer is that God did not intend to create everything perfect, but he wanted to create it innocent as according to Robert Calamaio.   And that God had no intention to create a perfect world and reality.

There is an even greater flaw embedded in the challenge. That is, the skeptic assumes that God set out to create a “perfect” universe and somehow failed. But how does the skeptic arrive at this conclusion? What evidence is there of God’s purpose or that God failed to achieve this purpose? To arrive at such a conclusion, one would first have to know the intent of the creator. Is not “perfection” in the eyes of the person setting the standard? After all, perfection denotes a quality or performance or attribute that cannot be surpassed. For example, perfect vision would mean vision that cannot be improved upon. But to know what perfect vision is, one would first have to know what is to be accomplished with vision. Is it simply seeing in daylight, or also in complete darkness or underwater?  Only with a clear understanding of the designer’s purpose could one know how close to the mark he hit. (The Please ConvinceMe Blog)

However if the latter is true, then I guess we go back to the Non-Theist Question of Why would God create such a flawed reality and imperfect world?

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About M. Rodriguez

When I first received Christ salvation, I made it a priority to read the whole bible and I did. But it was the Bible that made me question my faith. For I found it flawed and lacking. Due to this I launched a personal inquiry/investigation into my faith, and ultimately realized that the Christian God of the Bible was indeed man-made. Now I Blog about those findings and life after Christ.
This entry was posted in atheist vs christian, carm, Common Sense, contradiction, creation, creationism, evolution vs. creation, faith, Free-Thought, freethinker, god, inspiration, Intelligent Design, logic, occam's razor, ontological argument, probability of God, quote, reasonable evidence, religion vs. science, The Thinking Atheist and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

22 Responses to The Argument for and Against A Perfect Creator

  1. Why would a Perfect being need to ever need to create anything?
    And your Lord creates what He wills and chooses; not for them was the choice. (28:68)

    What are the attributes of a perfect Creator? Does reality reflect that of a perfect creator?
    Attribute- it require a post to answer the question. I skipped this. A powerful creator? I believe, yes. I can just pick the smallest atom or as big planet that being controlled with such precise measurement and precise law of physics. How the law of physic react, it depend on how it was purposely design, i.e heat.

    Can Something Imperfect come out of Something perfect?
    A definition of perfect creation must suit to its purpose of creation. Example, the purpose of fire is to heat and burn, even when a fire burn the houses, it have been design perfectly. Analogy – A perfect racing car don’t suit to become lorry truck, vise verse.

    When we make a comparison, we must know what are we comparing. The reality is we don’t know the purpose of each creation that being created.

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      In my last post series on a perfect god. I look at the biblical definition of perfect and how it pertains to god.

    • I was referring to Oxford Dictionary, Perfect means “having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics”.

      So I believe my explanation are reflected to the meaning of word “perfect”.

      UnkleE provide a statement “God doesn’t have a need.”. Yes, I agree that God don’t have a need but if he want to create something, He just create it. He don’t require a reason.

      • M. Rodriguez says:

        I actually did consider doing a post along those lines, but that would be far more detailed and research intense for my likening,

        I would be going into the points of ominpotent, omnisence, eternal, infinite, immutable. And that is just the more popular ones, And I really did not want to go into all the philosophical and theological arguments as is. I don’t even like philosphical arguments, but I bent those rules a little on this series, because it did cause for that.

        So I tried to stick to a more generic definition of perfect- Without Flaw or Error. However in some of my post that have a looser definition of perfect or a varying definition of perfect, then I go more into, like when I talk about the biblical definition of perfect, and how perfect implies immutable, and how perfect is used in context of the bible in different ways. And in one section, I do have a very interesting youtube on a definition of a perfect God, that I have never heard of before.

        But all in all, this series is mostly dedicated to, what does it mean when we call God perfect. In what ways is he perfect. And the different ways as it mostly pertains to the God of the bible and his work.

      • In my theology, we always stick to this verse
        “Nor is there to Him any equivalent.” (112:4)

        Even, creation and A Creator share a similar word example “loving”, “benevolent”, “perfect”, “knowledgeable” or what ever. The meaning must always differ from creator and creation.

        In this verse also, we reject all others deity, i.e idols, Jesus (as God), human god, etc. As long we can compare to any creation, it was not God…

  2. unkleE says:

    God doesn’t have a need. He creates to give because he is loving.

    • Bizbird6 says:

      God is NOT loving!!

      1. He murdered thousands or millions in Noah’s flood. He may try to justify it by saying that mankind is wicked. But does that include the children too? Is he saying that a 4 or 5 year old child is wicked and deserve to die? How about an 2 year old infant? Wicked also?

      2. Sodom and Gomorrah. Again the people are wicked! But again the Innocent children too?

      3. First Born Egyptians? But these are NOT wicked! God killed them just to teach the stubborn Pharaoh a lesson. Again, this is JUST????

      4. Canaanites? Again Wicked? (Or Just in the wrong place in the wrong time?) Again, the children and infants are wicked too?

      See, God is NOT Loving at all! In fact, he is a Monster and BULLY. Pushing his weight around over those poor humans!

  3. T. J. says:

    Wow, I thought everybody agreed with me, but then I realized I was the only one who voted – consensus!

  4. Noel says:

    I don’t need to draw, for example, but I enjoy drawing, because I have the talent and the will to draw.

  5. M. Rodriguez says:

    @Noel and @UnkleE,

    I think this is one of the more interesting atheistic arguments the perfection of God. That is God is Perfect, that he/she is without Want or Need. What would Perfection Want? What would Perfection Need? And the obvious answer is nothing. So I digress to the quote I have in the first question by Chad Doctorman…………………………. If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete–it needs nothing else…There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do.

    I think for me and many others, in this question, forget why would a perfect god create anything. Why would a Perfect God, that had existed for all eternity Do Anything?

  6. unkleE says:

    “why would a perfect god create anything. Why would a Perfect God, that had existed for all eternity Do Anything?”

    Marcus I gave my answer. Do you think it is inadequate?

    • Arkenaten says:

      Yes, totally inadequate, as you are attributing human values/qualities to a deity, once again doing what you are so adept at, making a statement/claim, based on your own ( or the biblical ‘god inspired’) personal interpretation.
      If your god was was all you claim, he would have no need of puny humans like you to explain his handiwork. What are you, some sort of Deist trade union representative? How much more arrogant can flaming Christians get?
      Shakes head and walks away.
      Oh, and PS: Tell Tim O’Neill from me, he is a bigoted twit of the first order. Thanks.

      On behalf of gods everywhere, Unklee has spoken.

      • M. Rodriguez says:

        @ UnkleE,

        Ummm, Yes. but I would not say inadequate, but no longer insufficient for me atleast. Cause something that is perfect, has no error. And it is complete and whole. Thus if God has a want or a need, he is no longer whole.

        and that is why I love that quote by chad docterman in the post

  7. unkleE says:

    “if God has a want or a need, he is no longer whole.”

    But Marcus, the whole point of my comment was that the premise of your statement is wrong. So if God doesn’t have a want or need, then he may be whole. He creates not out of need, but out of free choice to love. And I was asking what you thought of that.

    Or are you saying that making a free choice is bad because it reveals a want? In which case God would be “more perfect” if he was unable to choose???

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      Or are you saying that making a free choice is bad because it reveals a want?……YES…….Once shows unfulfilled want or need,Is he any longer complete? And if he is not complete or whole, then he is not perfect.

      I guess here we are both going to disagree on the semantics on the completeness of perfect.

  8. unkleE says:

    “I guess here we are both going to disagree on the semantics on the completeness of perfect.”

    Yes, I guess we are. It seems to me to be strange reasoning that says that someone who chooses to offer a gift to someone else is somehow less than someone who doesn’t. In fact it seems arbitrary too – you could just as easily argue that if God didn’t create then he is less because he needed to be alone. Which demonstrates to me that this “argument” is weak, arbitrary and meaningless. So I guess I’ll bow out of the discussion. Catch you later.

  9. Pingback: Reflection on Man’s Natural Tendency to Sin | Notes of an Imperfect Christian | Notes of an Imperfect Christian

  10. Pingback: Is God Immutable (Unchanging)? | The BitterSweet End

  11. Pingback: Is the concept of a Perfect God Illogical? | The BitterSweet End

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