The Fallacy of Christ the Man

If Christ was in fact God, he knew all the future.

Before Him like a panorama moved the history yet to be. He knew how his words would be interpreted.

He knew what crimes, what horrors, what infamies, would be committed in his name. He knew that the hungry flames of persecution would climb around the limbs of countless martyrs. He knew that thousands and thousands of brave men and women would languish in dungeons in darkness, filled with
pain.

He knew that his church would invent and use instruments of
torture; that his followers would appeal to whip and fagot, to chain and rack.
He saw the horizon of the future lurid with the flames of the auto da fe.

He knew what creeds would spring like poisonous fungi from every text. He saw the ignorant sects waging war against each other.

He saw thousands of men, under the orders of priests, building prisons for their fellow-men. He saw thousands of scaffolds dripping with the best and bravest blood. He saw his followers using the instruments of pain. He heard the groans—saw the faces white with agony.

He heard the shrieks and sobs and cries of all the moaning, martyred multitudes. He knew that commentaries would be written on his words with swords, to be read by the light of fagots. He knew that the Inquisition would be born of the teachings attributed to him.

He saw the interpolations and falsehoods that hypocrisy would write and tell. He saw all wars that would be waged, and-he knew that above these fields of death, these dungeons, these rackings, these burnings, these executions, for a thousand years would float the dripping banner of the cross.

He knew that hypocrisy would be robed and crowned—that cruelty and credulity would rule the world; knew that liberty would perish from the earth; knew that popes and kings in his name would enslave the souls and bodies of men; knew that they would persecute and destroy the discoverers, thinkers and inventors; knew that his church would extinguish reason’s holy light and leave the world without a star.

He saw his disciples extinguishing the eyes of men, flaying them alive, cutting out their tongues, searching for all the nerves of pain.

He knew that in his name his followers would trade in human flesh; that cradles would be robbed and women’s breasts unbabed for gold.

And yet he died with voiceless lips.

Why did he fail to speak? Why did he not tell his disciples, and through them the world: “You shall not burn, imprison and torture in my name. You shall not
persecute your fellow-men.”

Why did he not plainly say: “I am the Son of God,” or, “I am God”? Why did he not explain the Trinity? Why did he not tell the mode of baptism that was pleasing to him? Why did he not write a creed? Why did he not break the chains of slaves? Why did he not say that the Old Testament was or was not the inspired word of God? Why did he not write the New Testament himself?

Why did he leave his words to ignorance, hypocrisy and chance?  Why did he not say something positive, definite and satisfactory about another
world?

Why did he not turn the tear-stained hope of heaven into the glad
knowledge of another life? Why did he not tell us something of the rights of
man, of the liberty of hand and brain?

Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?

I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.

–Robert Ingersoll, from Volume III of his collected works in a section called: About the Holy Bible.

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About M. Rodriguez

When I first received Christ salvation, I made it a priority to read the whole bible and I did. But it was the Bible that made me question my faith. For I found it flawed and lacking. Due to this I launched a personal inquiry/investigation into my faith, and ultimately realized that the Christian God of the Bible was indeed man-made. Now I Blog about those findings and life after Christ.
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85 Responses to The Fallacy of Christ the Man

  1. Let put like this, put Christianity’s creed aside, just put simple logic.

    For a people who learn the history of Jesus, like or not, he will understand that Jesus is brilliant and wisdom man. He is reformer of Jew’s religion, he reform the understanding of religion itself (in my belief, not Christianity) and he know how to attract people which gather a lot of crowd, he is very influential among workers, middle- income people and he also a teacher of manner, laws, etc.

    Above is a a part of character of Jesus and at the same time, he not know everything but he also well known as the smartest people in those era.

    “He was a man, and did not know.” I disagree by this statement, I believe it better to put “He is a man, and he is a wisdom man (as human being) which he also have a weakness as a human being i.e do not know everything”.
    In my religion, at the end of my statement, just put additional clause:
    “that send by God to guide people which being called as a prophet (in Aramaic -son of god)”.

    To blame Jesus just based on assumption of certain understanding (i.e Christianity) are not fair to him (Jesus) too.

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      I would say to blame Jesus for not having the foresight, to properly explain certain discrepant and doctrinal issues is somewhat very human. if Jesus was God, he would’ve have been more clear in his words so that christian are not killing each other over petty doctrinal issues things, like (Infant Baptism; free will, divorce, re-marrying, tithes, Church authority and structure)

  2. arkenaten says:

    @Hifzan

    As a Muslim you deny the divinity of Jesus. Good.
    Perhaps you would like to explain the nature of the Virgin Birth as well?
    You believe he was a wise man sent by god to reform the jews etc etc.

    If God is/was so smart why did he send his ónly begotten son as an itinerant preacher to a dirty, dusty, war-torn backwater of the earth that He created?
    And then allow his only son to be nailed to a piece of wood as a human sacrifice supposedly as a ‘Get-out-of-Jail -Free-Card for the rest of humanity.
    What an absolute croc of manure. Would you, as a father sacrifice one of your kids as a blood atonement on the supposed say so of an invisible god or , a voice in your head?

    If this god is so great why did he wait around 98,000 years of man’s approximate existance of 100,000 years before deciding it was time to send someone to sort out the almighty(sic) cock ups He had made in the first place?
    He couldnt get it right with the Garden of Eden, the Flood, or the Tower of Babel.
    Ánd yet it seems He felt that being complicit in the murder of his own son was the way to go.
    Sorry, I forgot, as a Muslin you deny that Jesus was crucified, right?
    Anyway, divine or not, crucified or not, surely it would have been better if He had sent his son to a nation like the Chinese where people at least could read?

    Believing that Jesus and/or God is/was smart sadly illustrates why reason and rationality are not welcome traits among religious folk and why early religious organisations developed a dizzying array of painful and often fatal methods to purge people of such heretical tendencies.

    Hug your kids and read them a nice story like Charlie and the Chocolate factory and let them make up their own minds regarding scripture when they are old enough. Dont poison them’.

    Peace.

  3. @arkenaten,

    Even my English not so good, I think my statement is quite clear unless you don’t read OR don’t understand OR understand the way Christian thinks.

    To tell me that “As a Muslim you deny the divinity of Jesus.” may be you don’t read my statement:

    “that send by God to guide people which being called as a prophet (in Aramaic -son of god)”
    A meaning of prophet itself is human being who are wise, good looking, mature, and many more but as a prophet, the wisdom, talent, leadership are above among WISE people. But it doesn’t mean “man is created weak” (Quran 4:28) are being lifted. If you slap him, he still feel the pain (not powerful), or you ask him about the future not every thing he knew and many other example that I can refer.

    To answer 2 paragraph and below, it a waste of my time because that is “Christianity” belief and it not my belief but, I want to emphasize one thing, what is “world”.

    World in others language except English is being called “Dunya”. Refer to most other major language Urdu, Hindu, Malay, Arab, Punjab, Persian, etc. Only English have put “world” as become great i.e “The New World”, “World Order”, etc.

    This “world” in “other language” called “The lowest”, if there are pain, suffering, dying, etc (and it real) – it just suit the name “the lowest”. Of course, it was great in certain degree, but it just the lowest.

    Bros,
    Get a knowledge about others religion before interfere or at least understand the culture. You want to attack Islam with this little knowledge about Islam and religion, actually I was giggling in front of my laptop.

    As you know the word “Chinese”, I want to quote from one great book of China, Sun Tzu, Art of War said:

    “It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.”

    Mean: You need to understand how yourself and your opponent think very well and also understand their demography, geography, culture, language, etc. Not just assume you know, or assume you think you know.

    • arkenaten says:

      You have just illustrated the point wonderfully why reason and raitonality are not welcome traits among religions.
      There is little point in hoping to expect any further meaningful dialogue with someone who espouses polemic in the name of a religion that breeds the type of mindless devotion that would encourage someone to become a suicide bomber, call for the death of anyone who would poke fun at Mohammed (a man whose last act of ‘Peace’ was to amass an army of around 30,000 men and invade Syria,”) or fly an aircraft into a building, any more than one could expect rationality from someone who was part of a religion that believed people were raised from the dead or allowed people to be burnt at the stake merely for having a different point of view.

      And , as expected you made no attempt to answer a single question I asked.

      Silly Person…

  4. ubi dubium says:

    He didn’t even do simple things, like telling his followers to wash their hands to prevent the spread of disease! And there’s not one instance in the whole bible of jeebus saying “I say unto you, and this is important, so write this down…” Pretty poor showing for someone who was supposedly god.

  5. M. Rodriguez says:

    I have a Question for the Commenters: Where does Jesus rank in history among the great moral teachers? i.e. Ghandi, tolstoy, martin luther king jr. desmond tutu, nelson mandela, mother teresa, and that lady in burma, I can’t remember her name. Or anyone that others might suggest.

    • Based on “secular” rank, “Times 100 most influence people in history”, Jesus rank as should be no2.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100 or full list in
      http://physics.hallym.ac.kr/~physics/course/a2u/evolution/img/toptenlistweb.pdf

      • arkenaten says:

        @Hifzan
        Read Marcus’s question properly.
        He asks, MORAL teachers, NOT influencial people.

        Nothing of any moral value can be attributed to the character of Jesus with any degree of certitude.

      • Arkenaten,
        May be you have a better proposal of moral teacher which tally with your definition of “morality”.

      • arkenaten says:

        @ Hizfan

        Arkenaten,May be you have a better proposal of moral teacher which tally with your definition of “morality”.”

        Certainly…me for example.
        I dont lie to my children, I would never stone my wife for adultry, or blow stuff up because of a religous belief, I would never fight a war for religious reasons, or reasons of greed and avarice, I do not believe in hell or promote such a philosophy.I don’t believe in human bondage of any sort nor would I sacrifice an animal to a deity I would never consider paedophilia or polygomy as a lifestyle choice, unlike some supposedly moral teachers.
        So on this score, I beat Jesus, Moses and Mohammed hands down.

        Got any other pearls of wisdom about your version of morality?
        The Ark

      • My pearl of wisdom is:
        Your definition of morality have touch my heart so deeply…
        Please submit your CV to Times magazine or Nobel Peace Price. I really hope, deep from my heart that you be listed as next Nobel Peace Price 2013.

        Aja-aja Fighting (Korean version of encouragement word)

    • arkenaten says:

      Jesus was not moral. He may have believed he was but his actions – or at least those attributed to him – speak otherwise.
      To warp the law of nature is immoral. Being born without his dad’s involvement is immoral.
      And how did Joseph feel about this? Would you be happy? I reckon he was more than a bit miffed, putting his heavily pregnant wife on the back of a donkey and riding nigh on 80 miles for a dubious census, just to find that all the inns were fully booked and he had to sleep in a perishing barn. I mean, bloody hell. This is the Son of Gid we’re talking about right?
      Cursing fig trees, doing bakers and fishermen out of honest business, To change water into wine, thus encouraging drunken revellery – and not even making any beer!
      Telling people to leave their mums and dads and ditch everything merely to ‘follow me is immoral.
      Follow him where? For all we know he could have meant to wander around the sodding desert for another 40 years.
      Telling his Followers that, He’ll be back” before this generation has died.
      WTF Who did he think he was, Arnold Swartzenegger? Ï’ll be back” Honestly. And did he pitch up?
      Er…no..
      And look what that little white lie has cost so far!

    • arkenaten says:

      @Hizfan
      My pearl of wisdom is:
      Your definition of morality have touch my heart so deeply…
      Please submit your CV to Times magazine or Nobel Peace Price. I really hope, deep from my heart that you be listed as next Nobel Peace Price 2013.

      Aja-aja Fighting (Korean version of encouragement word)

      If I thought for one second you were being sincere I just might
      Oh, wait a moment, isn’t your most recent post all about sincerity?
      Ah, yes…well, what can one expect, really?
      The Crispyuns have a saying about removing the log from your own eye or something….
      It’s in that other work of fiction, the bible.

      You should read it if you get the time. Its as funny as your book.

  6. You expecting me to reply to anonymous and the one who can not even differentiate between Christianity belief and Islamic belief?
    It just as good as talking to the hand.

    Many people that I meet, who like to call people “silly”, etc etc is actually coming from low educated family or still young to understand the world. I always deal with this kind of people, so I don’t mind and please learn to behave correctly.

    Culturally, Atheist in Eastern’s part of world is a good as Khmer Rouge or Communist.
    Actually Western culture is have become worse, “Connecticut School Shooting” is just a starter, it just shown the failure of culture, economy, education of secular studies. For me, it better to watch your mouth, as it start to backfire at your side.

    • Above reply for arkenaten,

      • arkenaten says:

        LOL ,MY country.” And what do you think is ‘my country, Hifzan? It most certainly is not the States.
        But can you answer why one group of Moslims would willfully blow up another group of Moslims?
        You all revere Mohammed, all worship Allah. What could there possibly be that was so offensive to cause such a deed?
        Please tell me. And please offer me a direct answer without sinking to polemic. Merely answer the question ,please.

      • But can you answer why one group of Moslims would willfully blow up another group of Moslims?
        May be they just not educated and need to have an education.

        You all revere Mohammed, all worship Allah. What could there possibly be that was so offensive to cause such a deed?
        All human being have their own limits, so don’t cross the limit, every one will live happily. For uneducated people, their limit are lower than average people, so they easily burst.. With poor environment, they don’t have a media to voice up, dont have money to buy books. With suppression from foreign (as US) making the life more suffer.

        No need to have a “degree” to understand this situation.

        but for your country, which have abundant of books, knowledge in finger click behave like this is worse than their.

        Simple. Right?

      • arkenaten says:

        Then maybe the rest of the ‘educated’ Islamic world ought to educate their ignorant, murderous, I’m-going-to-heaven-where-I get-to-have-lots of sex- with-virgins- yay- for- me after I indescriminantly blow to shit my fellow Muslim brohers?
        Yet, how ignorance can be used as an excuse to murder another human being based on a religious belief is beyond me.
        But you are the religious person so you figure it out?
        Atheists don’t have places of worship, ( maybe the pub ) so I should give a damn, right?
        As Jimi Hendrix once sang….”Fall mountains, just don’t fall on me” (Iif 6 was 9)
        Peace

    • arkenaten says:

      I took down my blog a couple of months ago. I was too busy to maintain it to the degree i wanted, as i have done on several occasions. But I may start again and I shall invite you over , have no fear.
      In the meantime, If you wish to communicate with me directly I am perfectly willing to give you my email address. All you have to do is ask.
      As for being young or a low educated person…LOL! if you say so, and I am flattered that you might at least thing I am young.

      “Culturally, Atheist in Eastern’s part of world is a good as Khmer Rouge or Communist.”
      This staement merely demonstrates you have no grasp of the difference between political ideology and religion.)or non religion in the case of atheism) A little more research might help you form a more balanced perspective in this regard.

      “Actually Western culture is have become worse, “Connecticut School Shooting” is just a starter, it just shown the failure of culture, economy, education of secular studies. For me, it better to watch your mouth, as it start to backfire at your side.”

      Oh really?….
      http://www.newser.com/story/127117/29-dead-in-iraq-mosque-bombing.html

      29 dead, 38 wounded in attack on Mosque during prayers by suspected al Qeada suicide bomber.

      Yay for religion! Go soak your head.
      Silly person…

  7. This article is a product of a fertile imagination and a fine exercise in creative writing. Unfortunately it is also devoid of proper context and exegesis of scripture as usual with this form of blasphemy.
    As is written in the article “Why did he not plainly say “I am the Son of God” Why did he not explain the Trinity?”

    Because Jesus did not come out and plainly say “Hey everyone I am GOD” Is because the Jews had no concept of the Trinity, it would have come across “I’m Yahweh”! They only knew of God the Father, not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. It would have been an apparent all out blashpemy, and counter productive to what Jesus’ message was. He was very careful as to what and how he said things in the general crowds and populations, but not to his disciples. The Gospels are mainly what he said in public.

    As for Churches committing horrific tortures and such in the name of God Jesus, does that mean was behind them? The Gospels of Jesus do not remotely mirror those actions. If I were to go on a killing spree in the name of YOU, does that make you guilty of such actions? This is illogically presented.

    Brian Mason

    • arkenaten says:

      It couldnt possibly be that the Church invened the Trinity as a way to counter Arianism and a host of other Christian splinter groups they were hell bent on eradicating, could it?
      Just asking…. carry on.

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      Hello Brian, glad to see you, you were actually one of the first blogs that I started to follow.

      However let me explain the post….It is highlighiting the lack of foresight, that the words of Jesus would have. Saying if Jesus was God, he would’ve have been more clear in his words so that christian are not killing each other over petty doctrinal issues things, like (Infant Baptism; free will, divorce, re-marrying, tithes, Church authority and structure)

      It is saying, that if Jesus was God, that he would have been Crystal Clear in his teachings, so that they could not be interpreted in a way he did not want.

  8. @arkenaten,
    May be you can win against some uneducated person and I believe you may notice that I play with you.

    My personal advice: it was a shame for a country that produce such a good engineering and science (which I learn using Western book) but people who live that have very low attitude.

    Learn some manners, you lack of it. There are many way to express the thought in polite manners and civilize attitude.

    Think about it. Until then, good luck.

    • arkenaten says:

      “Learn some manners, you lack of it. There are many way to express the thought in polite manners and civilize attitude.”

      Your follow a religious doctrine that denegrates women and children, that. reveres a paedophile,sanctions jihad, and stands idly by when calls for assaination are demanded when someone makes a silly cartoon of your revered polygmist leader.
      If you wish me to learn manners maybe i can only offer some advise based on my uncivilized upbringing and current immoral atheist lifestyle?

      Go soak your head.

      • I always scratching my head while giggling when you write in a reply. Haizzzz…

        A few vocabulary that I learn from you “Go soak your head”, “silly person”, Yay for religion!”. May be it was your culture, so I don’t take a mind.

        No wonder News said :Chinese have excel in top science school, Indian are top researcher in Silicone Valley. I can see the reason “why”.

        You can use your “Islamophobia” argument against local Muslim in your country (which defend less), but you can not use same method to oversea people who live in Muslim country (which make you a laughing stock).

        ” Your follow a religious doctrine that denegrates………..bla, bla..”
        I am so scared, please come help me by sent your enforcement, here is my coordinate 5°24′00″N 100°14′20″E, may be you can send atomic boom as what US do to Japan last time … hahaha.

    • arkenaten says:

      @ Hizfan
      Firstly. I am NOT American. I do NOT live in the USA. and in fact I live in probably the most religiously diverse and tolerant country on the planet.
      Second. I am not Islamaphobic. I could give a damn if you worship mouldy cheese and call it Mohammed Blue. Just don’t export your crappy religious beliefs and please see if you can get those blokes who ‘sing’ in their minarets to shut up while I’m eating my dinner.
      I have a mosque on one side and a bloody church on the other. A man can’t THINK for religious diatribe.

      Why would I try to bomb you? Then I woould be just like you.
      How nuts would that be?

      And your religion does deigrate women and children, by the way. It’s in the Qu’ran.
      Well, it is in the copy I have written by A.Yusef Ali.

      • I know you not American, not living in US (maybe South Africa, i guess), but it just an example. If you live in probably the most religiously diverse and tolerant country on the planet, so do I. Living in country with rank 20 in Global Peace Index, with diversity in religion (with most major religion) and race (with most major races of world). To propose “I would be just like you”, it just can not work here. It not something that need to be exaggerated. Please find another proper reason.

        For me, attacking my religion based “Evangelical” understanding don’t work here. I have my own understand of the verse. So, if you just reading for leisure (may be), are you think that you can compete with Muslims. Just try visit your “on one side” mosque and compete with local preacher. I believe they like to entertain you.

        Actually, I still think how or what Atheist’s proposal on family woman and children protection, education, family economy, family’s responsibility, protection to poor family which can work/ rational. After you think about this, then let discuss again.

        I also man of reason, a person without proper proposal is nothing for me. Just want to win based “I am good because other bad” is totally unacceptable.

        I believe this post under “The Fallacy of Christ the Man”, even the owner don’t say anything, if you want a further discussion stick to the topic.

  9. arkenaten says:

    I believe this post under “The Fallacy of Christ the Man”, even the owner don’t say anything, if you want a further discussion stick to the topic.
    “Why did he go dumbly to his death, leaving the world to misery and to doubt?
    I will tell you why. He was a man, and did not know.”

    You are a Muslim, so I reiterate, you do not believe Jesus was crucified ; an area of the post you cleverly avoid by suggesting we put aside Christian creed aside so we can hear the Muslim perspective. Why would a Christian or an atheist be particularly interested in another silly religious perspective of Jesus?
    When the Jews eventually come out and admit all the Old Testament is fiction Christianity and Islam will be rendered as relevant as last weeks newspaper – ideal for wrapping chips or vegetable peel and Mohammed’s tale of recieving the word of god from an angel will seem as silly as it really is..
    Jesus was a man who got himself crucified for sedition, which pretty much sums it up.
    Next….

    • Why would a Christian or an atheist be particularly interested in another silly religious perspective of Jesus?
      Lol.. Then don’t write, I also don’t hear from you too. Actually, I also doesn’t want hear a perspective from so called “I think I the most clever Atheist” which eventually not that smart.
      Just a question to others blogger, every middle age white man are like this? Sigh…

      No need to get clarification from Jews and Christian, Muslim do not endorse current (I make strong word, CURRENT) NT or OT as a part studies. We just believe original Gospel and Torah have emmmpphh may be lost… who knows…

      I will summarize, Jesus is human being. Perspective of Jesus are different between different understanding based what they believe.

  10. arkenaten says:

    “No need to get clarification from Jews and Christian, Muslim do not endorse current (I make strong word, CURRENT) NT or OT as a part studies. We just believe original Gospel and Torah have emmmpphh may be lost… who knows…”

    RFLMAO…You WISH it was lost. Those naughty Jewish folk in all likliehood only BEGAN to compose the OT (Torah) during the Babylonian Captivity. A wonderful story for them designed to maintain hope until old Cyrus the Great let them sod off back to Canaan.
    And so children…..many years later a man called Mohammed claimed he had a conversation with an Angel and emerged from a cave, announced he was the New and
    Improved Profit sorry…I mean Prophet, and set about Conquering The World,(because God told him to) which, incidently, pissed off a lot of people.
    Furthermore, the Angel forgot to mention that Jesus was supposed to be God’s son, which annoyed even MORE people, including the Jews who claim that God never told Moses ANYTHING while he was…oops, I mean God was chiselling out the Ten Commandments atop mount Sinaisitus, or wherever it was.
    But this is okay because God is Really Smart which is why ,as before, he appeared, via his Angel Gabrial…”Wotcha Gabrial, how’s it hanging?”…. in a smelly Middle Eastern backwater full of sand, dates, men wearing tea towels on their heads and camels. He then,over a period of quite a few years, via visions and whispering in Mohammed’s ear, dictated his New and Improved Handbook in Arabic and told Mohammed to call it the Qur’an. Mohammed did, and began writing all the stuff down that God told him on palm leaves, the sole of his sandel, camel’s bottoms etc until a few scribes gathered all this together and began writing it down on papyrus or the back of a box of dares or something. Stuff like , how to organise a Razzia. How to have lots of wives, including underage ones and get away with it. How to justify Jihaad ( Tell them God said so, okay?”) and lots of other really cool rules that make absolutely no moral sense at all.
    Just like God’s other two books, in fact.
    . How marvelous!! And in a language that all educated people …especially camel drivers and goat herders would understand At Once Well, once thay had learned to read that is. Meantime we will just take Mohammed’s word for it, okay? Right….

    And to show how Really Smart God is, he eventually commanded his Muslim Believers to fly two very large aircraft into two very large buildings in the land of His Christian Believers.

    You have to admire how Really Clever and Astute God is.

    “I think I the most clever Atheist” which eventually not that smart.:

    Actually I am very smart. and MUCH better looking,especially for a ‘middle age white man like this” and the reason I am so smart is that by the age of seven I learned to recognise the difference between fact and myth/fairy tale.

    You may nowgo and soak your head.

    The Ark has spoken – isnt this fun!!
    Go in peace.

    Oh, and Happy Saturnelia or what ever its called over there…. ;)

    • One thing that I think that was common between atheism is they don’t really care about their tongue which may cause them a lot of trouble, which Asian normally said “no manners”.

      Actually I no need to reply anything, (it was abundant blog that talking a same thing, so no need to copy and paste it for you) you have already decided who we are, so let it be.

      Atheist and religion are totally 2 different thing which actually clashing with each others. With the raise of atheist in Western and raise of Islam in East (and also West), if there are no mutual understanding, tolerance, and diplomacy that being found between this two. Sure, there will be a fight between this 2 block.

      From my understanding, mutual understanding will not come through fundamental, it may come through humanism. Human need solution in term of social problem, etc, I just see Atheism just can not provide it, I believe Atheism just make it worse.

      No proposal, no solution, no mutual-understanding. Just talk only … It just “Now we have kill Christianity, so what next, everyone looking at each other side, blurrr”.
      No wonder secularism are slowly faded (at least in Eastern).
      Pity society (not you).

  11. arkenaten says:

    Seems you trashed you initial reply….Oh well…
    It is sometimes difficult to remain objective, tolerant and good mannered in the face of fundamentalist BS irresective which religon is blathering on about how it is the ONLY religion to offer Salvation.
    Here’s my offer.
    I promise to be completely objective, friendly, tolerant, understanding and good mannered if you promise to lobby to have every reference to Jihaad removed from the Qur’an and personally reject it.
    And if you, on behalf of your religion publicly apologise on this blog for all the bloodshed in the name of your god – including, suicide bombings and 9/11 .

    Bit difficult for you, I suspect, but not impossible.
    So, rather, just strive to do away with all religon, as it has brought little but division and polarisation.
    Each of the three major Monotheist religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam claims to be a religion of peace, which is a lie, as each one was spread through war and bloodshed.

    Religion offers NOTHING but demands my soul as punishment for un-belief and l damns me to hell.
    FTS.
    I’ll take my chances as an atheist thank you very much, and you can enslave yourself to your stupid religion until the cows come home.

    However,maybe you can offer a good argument for me becoming a Muslim?

    I’m listening…

    The Ark

      • arkenaten says:

        Marcus, I feel bile rise in my throat when relgious people try to justify their standpoint based on a deity, whiole condemning non believers to ‘hell’.
        Ths is the worst type of hypocrisy, and is no better than what was done to the likes of Joan of Arc and so many hundred of thousands like her simply because they didn’t want to tow the theological line.

        An atheist can give at a hundred reasons why non belief is better, Religous people cannot offer one honest reason to believe in a god.

        Anyway, this type of discussion is always fun.
        Hope we didn’t hog the airwave too much? ;)

    • Lol, using “BS, and ” I’m listening”.

      Cursing all the way from the 1st reply and in the end said “I am listening”.
      How I going to respond on this, emmppp, BS too?

      Are you in depression? The argument in such “back street” mouth fighting, you expect me to reply in serious manner?

      • arkenaten says:

        Honestly? I doubt there is anything that you could offer that would make a convincing arguement, for me or anyone else.
        You truly expect me, or anyone else for that matter, to respect a religon that claims it is the peaceful world of god on one hand then sends suicide bombers to maim, mutilate and destroy on the other.
        And the only thing you seem upset about is me using term like ‘Bullshit’. The Ark shakes his head in bemusement.

        However, that said, if you feel you can justify such actions, and still go home hug and kiss your wife and kids AND sleep soundly in your bed knowing that someone, maybe even a fellow believer has just be stoned or hacked to death, shot, or blown to bits on the claimed say-so of your god who promises such delusional, brainwashed people they will be in Paradise shagging beautiful virgins, then go ahead…give it your best shot.
        We are ALL listening….

        You are probably a decent sort, but this is, unfortunately overshadowed when religion comes to the fore.
        Remember, this is not a fundamentalist’s site; you are commenting on the blog of a deconvertee, not a religious zealot, but someone who has eshewed religion for the utter Bullshit that it is. I am not making this about YOUR silly god or silly religion m, but ALL religion. Islam is just a little more unpalatable as it loves to destroy its followers on false promises.
        But when you get right down to it, what is religion all about? In a word. Blood….

      • Actually, I re- read my all reply. When I try to convince you regarding about my religion in this blog? Are you hallucinating? It based on the understanding of my thought. If you don’t agree, it not even my problem.
        I ask you to behave because I just think you are impolite. That it.

        I don’t have to reply you anything because I have 333 post in my blog clarify my understanding, if you doesn’t read, why I should care. 333 post is not a small number.

        The idea of “When you enter some religion, then you become good in ethics” is Christian doctrine. To tell me, I should sorry for what my fellow “Muslim” done, if he do the crime, go and prison him (or what so ever). Why I should say sorry for the crime I don’t do. Are you dreaming?

        You want to talk about war, right. There was no country in this world who don’t have an army. Defensive measure is a must for all country unless your socio-politic knowledge is on basic level.
        If you want to talk about war, defensive, I will suggest to few book before want to comment about war, government and policy.
        1) Sun Tzu “Art of War”
        2) Plato – “The Republic”
        3) Bertrand Russell – “Political Ideals”
        4) Miyamoto Musashi – “Book of Five Ring”
        5) Niccolo Machiavelli – “The Prince”
        Most of this book are available free by Gutenberg project.
        Read this first, then we can talk about jihad, etc. Just understand some Arabic word (actually misunderstand), think like “I am a scholar of the world”.

    • And if you, on behalf of your religion publicly apologize on this blog for all the bloodshed in the name of your god – including, suicide bombings and 9/11.

      May be, you start with apologize for what your ancestor do to my nation, which killing my of people during colonization 500 years and stealing tin by mining it. Importing Chinese labor to make them as slave to mining company. Import Indian as estate worker, put the local as puppets.
      Come with smile and say “we want to merchant here with peace” and at same time stab at the back. Seem, the story are keep repeating… Isn’t it?

      This was nothing personal, just refresh some of the history, but I still don’t call about history of China, India, etc which using Christianity to calm and bribe local so local will shut up. Hail Western!!!

      Actually, I don’t want to call back the history and I politely ask you to learn about culture, religion, history and keep your mouth carefully. Seem you not really understand what I to emphasize …

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      hey if you wish to do a guest post on the demanding of an apology, I will be more than happy to put that up, Cause those were some strong but true words.

      • M. Rodriquez,
        Not required.
        History are tools to understand the future with better better and not a tool to find mistake. Everyone are to blame for what they do, not for what their ancestor do. As many European has become my brother of faith, many Muslim in Asian/Middle East country have change their attitude toward Westerner due to this “similarity” in faith.

        But, history is always a “trump card” for people who know to use it wisely. Also, it not a tool to provoke and stir the hatred. So, it better not to use frequently, even I know how to use it. I reluctant to use it, unless in emergency case. It can cause a lot of havoc, racism, etc. If you want to use it, use it wisely…

      • arkenaten says:

        The distinction between conquest in the name of religion/god and mere conquest because of avarice should be made, even though a god was often involved in both scenarios.
        For Christianity, (read Pauline doctrine and Catholic Church rather than Jesus ( god was usually in the mix somewhere, and the Church was quick to send in the Jesuits etc once the initial pacification of the ‘Natives ‘ was accomplished – even if many of them came up short a bit later)
        With the Islamic conquests , initiated by Mohammed, it appears that God was always at the fore. Didn’t help those who didn’t particularly want to be conquered. But I’m sure god loved each and every one that was slaughtered just as much, right? ‘Course he did.
        Yahweh led the Jews in a similar fashion during their genocidal campaigns throughout Canaan.
        So when the old Colonization ticket is thrown into the pot it’s best to remember the Muslims did a fair bit too.

  12. arkenaten says:

    We are disscusing religion. on an atheists blog and you wish a public apologiy for colonization?
    So be it….
    If you wish a statement regarding colonization then I believe much of it was disgusting.
    And I am very sad what was perpetrated in the name of King, Queen and God, and I AM sorry for what many of my ancestors did. But I am in no position to undo what happened. HOWEVER, by trying to eradicate the things that divide us as a species, namely war,racism,hate and relgion then we can learn to exist in harmony.

    I reiterate. Religion offers NOTHING but demands my soul as punishment for un-belief and ldamns me to hell.

    The ultimate objective of the two major monotheist religions, Christianity and Islam is a world under one god.

    The end

  13. Owwhhh, we talking about religion.. I don’t notice it, because you keep talking about 9/11, Iraq tragedy, etc. Colonization are quite related to problem occurs in Middle East. History of Ottoman, Italian invading in Libya and Egypt which shape the history today. Past is past, but it my lesson learn toward Westerner attitude.

    Regarding Islam and colonization. Islam have help many locals to think and shape the idea of freedom, nationalism and revolution. To throw Islamic ideas is as good as giving up our freedom to Western colonization.

    I understand that Islam is different from Christianity and we talk about everything, god, politic, marriage, laws, principles, philosophy, war, ethics. So, I know and acknowledge and I agreed, that Islam is my choice without any influence of others.

    And for your info, today many Islamist are coming from engineering/science backgrounds if you read or notice their biography, and we know what we are believe.

    For me, I have my own definition of religion, so what is religion?

    “The Deen (religion) is naseehah (sincerity and sincere advice).” (Hadith in Sahih Muslim)

    The End..

  14. arkenaten says:

    Okay…I’m prepared to do an encore, for the sake of entertainment, as we all love a good story, right?
    You see, Hifzan, you seem to be deflecting the argument away from the core issue.
    Which is belief in a deity that through his prophets sanctions the lies and violence inherent and perpetrated by religion. Yours, theirs everybody’s.

    This is what you seem not to want to come to terms with.
    I have no doubt that you are a reasonably well adjusted person, qualified, as is your wife and a good husband and father, have a reasonably high level of morals and are a responsible member of your community. You are aware of some of the more unsavory aspects of the history of your people/country and are dealing with them admirably. Good for you…..
    However….and this is the biggie, I’m afraid. You are a member of a religion that sanctions violence as a means to an end. Again, not just Islam; there are similar examples across the board.
    Now, there are many ‘organisations’ that use violence for similar gains, ideological, political or plain old fashioned greed.
    But with religion, it is always because of a GOD. And the issue I have with this crappy system is that you lot cannot agree to which god you all wish to worship.
    And then you go and pass all this disgusting rubbish onto children.

    So, when religion -ALL religion -can sort itself out maybe the rest of us will pay you any respect due.
    The Ark leaves
    Curtain closes.

    • I also want to end with one sura of Quran:

      Say, “O disbelievers, [1]
      I do not worship(believe) that which you worship (believe), [2]
      nor do you worship the One whom I worship. [3]
      And neither I am going to worship (believe) that which you have worshiped (believe), [4]
      nor will you worship the One whom I worship. [5]
      For you is your faith, and for me, my faith.” [6]

      Understand…

      • arkenaten says:

        Of course I understand…..But I do not worship anything..so you are directing Surah 109 at the wrong person.
        But it illustrates the point I made quite nicely, and that is YOU don’t understand. But then,
        you are religious’ which explains pretty much everything.

      • There was no single human that not believe.

        Actually as an atheist, you believe “there was no god”. That is your foundation, faith and believe…

      • M. Rodriguez says:

        I would never describe atheism as a faith, but as conclusion. As with anything, after evaluating evidence or the lack of evidence, we conclude the most reasonable answer.

  15. arkenaten says:

    Hifzan
    Atheism is not a faith it is the absence of faith.

    Please try to understand once and for all. Your god is NOT special.It is one god among thousands.
    I am an atheist and do not believe in ANY gods.
    In fact you are an atheist too,in a way, because you do not believe in Greek gods, Roman gods, Thor, or any Hindu gods.

    Besides, how Great can Allah be? His book to the Muslims is in Arabic and in any other language is considered merely an interpretation as the language of the Qur’an is your god’s word.
    If your god was so wonderful; he would have introduced his word to the whole world at once so there wouldn’t be any misunderstanding. That’s what I would do and I’m only an infidel atheist.
    If I was a god the very last place I would announce myself would be a dessert populated by mostly illiterate camel drivers,goat herders..
    So either god was extremely negligent, stupid or Mohammed misunderstood the voices i his head?

    You are an intelligent man, you figure it out and when you do I would be VERY interested i the answer/

    • Arkenaten,

      Lol, now I am atheist (in different way). Funny.

      This question I always use to provoke my Christian blogger, but first time it being ask to myself. How I going to answer you with a short and direct answer. Actually this question are not hard to answer, but it tricky because it quite related other thing (free will, origin, sin, God’s attribute).

      1) I start with: Original Sin deleted. All human are born sinless, pure, clean from mother womb.
      2) Bloody Christ’s Salvation deleted. God himself can pardon the sin, just raise the hand SINCERELY, you will pardon, no veil between his servant and God.
      3) Human are sin if he know what he do (people who dont have knowledge (stupid), sleep, crazy people, or being forced to do what he dont to do are not counted for sin.
      4) Human are given two thing, wisdom and lust. Wisdom to think properly, lust for encouragement and sustain heirs, etc (Eventhough lust always being refer as bad, it is good part of lust).
      5) Human, if the message are not received, he is not counted for not believe. That why, some people who living in cave, etc (away from Islam), we not allow say he going to hell, because we just dont know.
      6) God sent message in many way, for people who don’t know scripture.
      7) Every person are being tested by God, and every person have different way of test and result. There knowledge you are, the more harder the test.
      8) God can do everything He want, either he want to put at desert or other place. It always His choice.

      There are few others example, but I believe, you not even bother to listen as your purpose are not to listen. So, there are 8 puzzle given, play by yourself.

      Actually, I think i waste a lot my time replying you. Now my blog are being attack by you by checking grammar error. Hahahaha. So, this is what people called “militant atheist”. Funny guy.

      • arkenaten says:

        Maybe it is wrong to accuse any god of nt being smart as this would suggest one acknowledges a god, which I do not, but such behavior as claiming to have received a holy book from god is not only stupid but criminal, irrespective of the religion.

        I retract my statement that you are an intelligent person as nothing in this reply refers to the question I posed:
        Which was:
        Why do you think your god announced himself to an Arab while he was sitting in a cave and gave this man his word, AGAIN, only this time in Arabic?

        Now, do you think you are able to answer this question?

      • arkenaten says:

        “Actually, I think i waste a lot my time replying you. Now my blog are being attack by you by checking grammar error.”

        You don’t actually need an English grammar lesson, and I would never mock a non-English speaker for grammar or pronunciation, as this would be churlish, as I don’t speak your language.
        What you do need, though are a few lessons in integrity.
        I know there is a Judeo/Christian commandment about not bearing false witness, is there not something similar in Islam?
        You blog, by the way, speaks for itself. I was hoping for an interesting read but most of it contains little else but Polemic.

      • Even your statement is wrong and twisted.

        This is suppose to be puzzle, right? Actually, the answer are in puzzle. Solve you self. You are paying me for answering the question. I am aware with the question and let me give a hint (the number is after 7).

        I am so scared that you punish me for not answering the question. Sob Sobb. (Gollum voice)

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      I think also we might be missing the larger picture and question. If God’s word is so important. Why would God not take the time and care to preserve his word beyond personal interpretation and language barriers

      • And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” Allah said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know.” (2:30)

        A similar way of question that being raise by angel, even in a different context. In the context, successive authority are human being, not other creation.

        In your question, you ask about preservation of God’s word but more specifically in term of personal interpretation and language barriers.
        Interesting question. I believe I need to tune to suit your degree of understanding.

        Here, few draft in my mind (which not yet drafted properly), even there are more, I believe it good enough to grasp the idea:
        1) Human are being created in different color, language important to interact with each other.
        2) Every human being are being design differently, the way he think, the way he thought, being raised. The need are different. So, the way the interpret may different from one another. This is character of human – different. It different from angel who being design to obey 100% god word which any objection (because they don’t have lust).
        3) The character of God’s word are “wisdom” and “knowledge”. To read it, even we have wisdom and knowledge, another requirement is sincerity and openness.
        4) Lust always try to justify word of God to suit what we wanted it to be.
        5) So to preserve God’s interpretation must come from word of wisdom man who He sent (example prophet and sincere scholar).
        6) Human require to filter the info that he received because he is being provide with brain.
        7) As being in verse quoted, God said: “Indeed, I know that which you do not know”.

      • arkenaten says:

        @Hifzan
        Oh what a crock of manure…”so to preserve God’s interpretation must come from word of wisdom man who He sent (example prophet and sincere scholar).”
        Mohammed wise? Oh dear…
        If it was god’s intention to bestow such an honour on a wise man then he should have looked to China where they could at least read and write.
        What was Mohammed? A merchant. Nothing else and it wasn’t even him that wrote any of what he preached.
        If god is omnipotent how difficult could it be to simply manifest in the minds of all mankind?
        You really are a silly person

  16. arkenaten says:

    “Every person are being tested by God, ”

    Which god are you talking about, please?

  17. M. Rodriguez,

    My answer to your question also being described in my 8 list of fundamental answer. There are more, but may be next time, now I being attack.

    Fire in the hole (Counter Strike’s music back ground)

  18. @Arkenaten,
    Seem like you are think that you are so brilliant.
    May I ask you something, you said that banned the religion will solve the problem.

    Actually, this is my high school question that I remember back then which I tune it little bit to suit your brain.

    In history, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao Zedong banned religion, but also massacred millions.
    Science brought incredible and amazing advances, but also pollution and the atomic bomb.
    In the name of religion, many people have kill people, but the reality religion are so persistent.

    What is the relation, nature, behavior, and theological factor of it.

  19. arkenaten says:

    Before I am prepared to answer the first part of the question please tell me which god you are referring to in this sentence?
    “What is the relation of God….,..”

    • arkenaten says:

      I asked you the question previously and you referred me to question 7, which is not answer.
      There are possibly thousands of gods so could you please be specific.

      • Suggesting for sake of discussion, if there were god, it suppose to be one God only.

        There were impossible to have god of krishna, thor, jesus, zeus, pharaoh or others god sit together in meeting room and have discussed.

        So, by suggesting “which god”, I will say “One True God”. Suggesting for sake of discussion, you can just refer to our nature of world to understand the nature of God Himself.

        The answer suppose to be 8 (I said number “after” 7).

  20. arkenaten says:

    So, again, please give the name of the god you are talking about?

    • Actually, I don’t understand why you require “god” name. A you an atheist, it make no sense at all, to ask which god or whose god, because you don’t believe in religion. Why asking a thing that you don’t even believe. Why I don’t want to give the name, if the truth is a truth, it doesn’t need anything to support it, the evidence is all over you (Unless you too blind to see it).

      My question is not that hard:

      In history, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao Zedong banned religion, but also massacred millions. Science brought incredible and amazing advances, but also pollution and the atomic bomb. In the name of religion, many people have kill people, but the reality religion are so persistent to be deleted in history of human kind.

      What is the relation, nature, behavior, and theological factor of it. How it is develop. If there were god, how it should be understand. What is the character god by description of our nature, behavior, world and universe.

      “You can just assume all religion are wrong, and then get the answer”. Don’t you study theology at school? Sigh…

      Note:
      Even Dawkin admitted that: that he preferred to call himself an agnostic rather than an atheist.

      • arkenaten says:

        So you are not going to give me the name of the god you are referring to, then?
        I will take a guess. Zeus, perhaps?

      • Another reason why I don’t give name because I can write a same answer without referring to any god or religion.
        And the question is quite secular, so by not taking god (specifically) into account, you can just produce a good answers.

  21. arkenaten says:

    I have no clue what the hell you are talking about in your last reply.
    So…once more. Which god are you talking about, please?

    • As you keep dodging the question by “which god are you talking about, etc, etc”. I assume you can not answer the question,so I write a answer for you.
      Reality of world.

      • arkenaten says:

        Re: Your link, Reality of world. Please, get a proper life. This is polemic, and it isn’t as if nobody else has trodden this weary path in the name of justifying there religion , now is it?
        So, which god do you worship?

      • Hey, just counter the answer if you clever enough.
        Or you just “clever” to critic without giving an solution.

        So fearful, is it paper tiger or militant atheist, Grrrrrrrrrhhhh… Ouchh, it hurt.

      • arkenaten says:

        So, to reiterate, the name of your is what?

      • The Name? “Say He is Allah, The One” (112:1).

        “nobody else has trodden this weary path in the name of justifying there religion”?
        Have you heard “Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.” {Sun Zu, Art of War, Chapter “Laying Plans”}.

        Try first, why so fear? Truth is truth, whatever people said.
        Understanding reality is a part of Islamic theology called “Fiqh al-Waqi”, Waqi mean “Truth or Knowledge” or simple said “Knowledge of Reality”.

        If this too weary for you?

  22. arkenaten says:

    “The Name? “Say He is Allah, The One” (112:1).”

    Ah, at last. So, this is the name of your god. Now, what evidence do you have that your god is any better than Shiva, Yahweh, Jesus, Zeus, Thor, Baal, etc?

    • arkenaten says:

      Or any more real for that matter? Please offer evidence…

    • “Ah, at last. So, this is the name of your god.”
      Lol!, I thought it was a common knowledge, so I don’t bother to answer. So pity, actually where are you from? Cave?

      I already answer so many question from you and you can’t even answer my question?
      I works as professional – counter, argue, contest, dispute is my job, people pay me for that. Don’t try to change the subject, it was outdated trick. Please find a good one.

      After you answer me, I will answer yours.

  23. I rank Yeshua with Granville Oral Roberts, Jim Jones, Koresh and Pat Robertson- jerk of a cult-leader!

    • M. Rodriguez says:

      I think for me two topics I plan address in the blog one day is cs Lewis trilemma of Jesus. And was Jesus a charlatan? I think I might do a post on that one day.

      • M., he might have been a charlatan, but as his writers describe him, in context, I would never want to be around such a person! See how Miklos Jako, deist, describes him in “Confronting Believers!”
        Please post something at the buy-bull blogs.
        And Google Skeptic Griggsy for more from me. I combine and permute arguments and revise them.

  24. Pingback: Just another atheist Questionaire | The BitterSweet End

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